FYROMacedonian Language

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The language spoken by the majority of the people of the State of FYROM which they have quite arbitrarily called <<Macedonian>>, is a Slavic dialect so closely resembling Bulgarian and Serbian, that according to linguistic principles it can hardly be considered an independent language at a par with the other two. The only detinite boundaries of this Slavic dialect are set by the Greek language.

They broadly coincide with the Yugoslav-Greek frontier except for a small enclave which that dialect forms on Greek territory in the mountainous regions north of Kastoria. In the West, that Slavic dialect borders on the Albanian language, but, in this case, the linguistic frontier does not coincide with the national Albanian-Yugoslavian border; for the State of Skopje counts among its inhabitants, 164,000 Albanian-speaking people.

The linguistic frontier on the Serb and Bulgarian sides are lost in the fluidity of equally divided linguistic groups on either side and are impossible to determine. The so-called «Macedonian» dialect is, in fact, an intermediate stage between Bulgarian and Serb. As one moves towards Bulgaria, the Serb elements grow rarer while the Bulgarian elements multiply and vice versa. For that reason, just as the Skopje region was the apple of discord between the politicians of Bulgaria and Servia, so its language has become an object of dispute. Serbian linguists stress its affinities with the Serb language; Bulgarians emphasize its similarities with Bulgarian. Both are anxious to prove that it is really an extension of their respective languages.

Viewed objectively, the situation appears as follows.

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1. Differences in relation to the ancient Slav language.

The phonetic differences of the dialect spoken in the State of Skopje in relation to the ancient Slav language are as follows:

1. It has changed the vowel known as «big ger~ (Z) into O, e.g. SZN into SON. (This change has taken place in Russian, but not in Bulgarian - with the exception, in the latter, of some endings which show this change.)

2. It has changed the vowel known as «small ger» (b) into e. (The same change has taken place in Russian and, in some cases, in Bulgarian.)

3. It has changed the nasal vowel ( no font for this one L.), ( =on) into a. (The same change has taken place in some central idioms of the Bulgarian language.)

4. It has inserted an -a- in a number of consonantal complexes, e.g. --dobar --instead of --dobr--. (The same development can be observed in Serbo-Croat.)
5. It has altered the consonantal complexes -tj- and --Kt-- into K before the vowels --e-- and --i--. (A similar alteration has taken place in Serbo-Croat.)

6. It has changed the consonactal complex --dj-- into -- g.--

7. It has changed the vowel form --l --into ol, e.g. --told--instead of --tlt--.(The same change has taken place in Russian.)

8. It has changed the initial vowel (L. no font available) (=je) into --ja--. A similar change has taken place in certain Serbo-Croat' idioms and in Czechoslovak.)

9. It has changed the consonantal complex --*cr-- into cr, e.g. *crn = black) - crn-- (The same change may be observed in Serbo-Croat.)

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2. Similarities with the Serb language

The Slavic dialect spoken in the State of FYROM shows the following similarities with the Serb language:

1. Both change the ancient Slavic --ty-- into *c whilst Bulgarian changes it into --*st-- e.g. the ancient Slavic --svesta = sister) has become sveca, as in Serb, whilst in Bulgarian it is svest. The ancient slavic --(nost =night) has become --noc-- as in Serb, whilst in Bulgarian it has retained its original form --nost-- etc.

2. It has changed the ancient Slavic form -- zd-- into -g- and --dj-- (in Serb, only into --dj--), whilst Bulgarian has retained the form --zd-- e.g. the ancient Slavic and modern Bulgarian word --mezdu= between) has become --rnedju-- in the dialect spoken in the State of Skopje, as in Serb.

3. It retains the accent on the antepenult. E.g. Vode'nisa (= Watermill), vodenitsar (= Miller) - plural vodenitsari with an article, vodenitsa-ta, Sinovi (Sons) with the article Sinovi-te whilst in Bulgarian the accent is freely placed.

4. It changes the gerundial ending -ki- into ( -ci-, whilst in Bulgarian, the sante ending is --ste--.

5. It uses thc same form of auxiliary verb --ke-- for the formation of the future as in Serb, whereas in Bulgarian the form --ste-- is employed.

6. It uses the same relative --on-- as the Serb language.

7. It uses the same indicative pronoun for proximate objects --ou-- as employed in Serb.

8. The system of possessive pronouns in the third person corresponds to the Serb not the Bulgarian equivalent.

On those similarities with the Serb language, the Serb linguists Belic and Iv. Ivanovic base their claim that the dialect Spoken in (page 15) the State of FYROMis an ancient branch of the Serb language which
subsequently was slightly influenced by the Bulgarian language.

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3. Common features with the Bulgarian language.

Apart, however, from the features which the dialect spoken in the State of FYROM possesses in common with Serb, there are other more numerous, and more important characteristics which that dialect shares with Bulgarian and which are unknown in Serb. These are as follows:

1. The reduction of case endings of nouns to three only, the Nominative, the Dative and the Accusative which further tend to be effectively limited to one. The Serb language, by contrast, has preserved 7 different case endings.

2. The use of prefixes for the formation of the comparative and the superlative degrees, e.g. rano (= early), po-rano (earlier). In Serb, by contrast, suffixes are used for that purpose, e.g. ran-ije.
3. The obsolescence of the infinitive, still used in Serb.

4. The transformation of the indicative pronoun masc. -ot-, fem.- ta-, neut. -to- into an article which follows the nouns as e.g. in angelot (the angel) zena-ta (the woman), selo-to (the village), plural angelite, zeni-te, sela-ta and the use of a triple article, e.g. maz-ot (= man), maz-ou (the man here), rnaz-on (= the man there). The last two --ou-- and --on-- characterise the Skopje dialect only. ( The appended article is common in Albanian, Rumanian, the Scandinavian languages and Armenian.)

5. The accent of words is dynamic, as in Bulgarian, whilst in Serb it is musical.

6. As in Bulgarian, an identical ending -i- was retained for both masculine and feminine plurals, whereas in Serb the ending -e>-e was generally adopted in feminine nouns.

7. The third person plural ends in -at-. This is also the case in Bulgarian but not in Serb where it ends in -u.

8. It uses the interrogative pronoun Koj = which) instead of --Kto ( = who). However, the same substitution is found in several other Balkan languages including Modern Greek.

9. Like Bulgarian, it uses the form -ni- for the pronoun " we"

10. It uses the aggregative ending -mina- which is also used in Bulgarian.

11. It contains a large number, probably thousands, of Greek words.
This is also true of Bulgarian but not of Serb which has very few.

Syntax does not throw much light on the relation of the Skopje dialect with either the Bulgarian or the Serb languages. Common forms can be found very widely in the languages spoken by the peoples of the Balkan peninsula which makes them a suitable subject for a comparative study of Balkan languages, but also makes it impossible to opine with any certainty about their derivations.

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4. Peculiarities of the dialect spoken in the State of FYROM.

The features of that dialect which are absent both from the Serb and from the Bulgarian languages are as follows:

1. that dialect alone forms the first person singular of all verbs with the termination -am-.

2. the use of a composite verb form using the auxiliary verb --imam (= I have)-- with the neuter of the past participle, e.g.-- imam videno (= I have it seen)-- meaning "I have seen it".


source
Adriotis,The Federative Rupublic of Skopje (FYROM) and its language,Translation from the original Greek Book

more in the relative thread from the Macedonia On the Web that you can read the all article (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/linguistics-forum/117-federative-republic-skopje-its-language.html)

[To_me]

and is also language spoken in the aegian macedonia untill 1948.
So think a little my greek friend.
When all those languages have similarities with Macedonian and they don;t have similarities in between. The only true and acceptable solution is that all these languages have come from the one language that all have similarities with.

[airwings]

and is also language spoken in the aegian macedonia untill 1948.
So think a little my greek friend.
When all those languages have similarities with Macedonian and they don;t have similarities in between. The only true and acceptable solution is that all these languages have come from the one language that all have similarities with.
So agree my big Skopjan friend ?

[Ellinas]

A chart about the origins of the Indo-European languages. The Slavic origin of the so-called Macedonian is clear.

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/ieorigins/nature.jpg

[Thorn]

The Macedonian language is spoken in the Republic of Macedonia and also outside its borders, in those parts of Macedonia which following the Balkan Wars were included in the neighbouring countries - Greece, Bulgaria and Albania - and also among Macedonian expatriates in Europe, USA, Canada and Australia. Macedonian today is the mother tongue of about two million people. On the territory it now occupies, and which was larger in the past, the Macedonian language developed from the speech forms of the Slav tribes, who, following the disintegration of the Proto-Slavonic community, came further to the south, to the Balkan Peninsula. The Slavs penetrated deep into Greece and Albania. But, with the course of time, they withdrew or were assimilated, and the territory they originally settled has been considerably reduced. In Albania, Macedonian is spoken not only in the several Christian villages in the Prespa region, but also in the Macedonian Moslem villages in Golo Brdo and Kjuks, as well as in Albanian towns. Until recently, in northern Greece there was a numerous Macedonian population settled up to the line extending from the River Bistrica to the west towards the Salonica plain. But here, too, the Macedonian population has been considerably reduced in numbers in the last few decades owing to well-known political events. The language of the Macedonian Slavs settling in the new environment retained the Proto-Slavonic language type for a long time, as proven by Old Church Slavonic, a standard created upon a Macedonian basis in the second halt of the 9th century. In its further development, however, like the Bulgarian language and, to a lesser extent, south-eastern Serbian speech-forms. it underwent fundamental structural changes under the influence of the Balkan language environment. Slavonic literacy in Macedonia appeared at the end of the 9th century A.D. The activity of the Ohrid Literary School, founded by St. Clement, has left a permanent mark on the language of that literacy, characterized, especially in its vocabulary, by a consistent continuation of the language of the first Slavonic translations. The first alphabet, the Glagolitic, was widely used in Macedonia until the llth century. From the 12th century onwards, there are considerable deviations in Macedonian texts from the Old Church Slavonic standard. In the 14th century, the use of a Serbian variant grew in importance, being predominant in Macedonian literacy until the 18th century. Elements of the Macedonian popular language of the modern style were gradually introduced into the language of church literature starting from the end of the 16th century. This process may be seen particularly in what are known as "damaskins", translations of the sermons of the Greek writer Damaskin Studite (16th century); this was by way of being a certain preparation for the introduction of the Macedonian vernacular into literary use, which took place at the beginning of the 19th century, in the books of Joakim Krchovski and Kiril Pejchinovik. However, even though books were written in the vernacular in the first half of the 19th century, there was no expressed awareness of the need to establish a general literary standard. The use of the vernacular was regarded as a lower style as compared to Old Church Slavonic, or, in the southern regions of Macedonia, to Greek, which were considered to be elevated style. The question of a literary standard was first considered in the 1850s, when the Macedonian bourgeoisie, together with the Bulgarian bourgeoisie, came into conflict with the Constantinople Patriarchate over the use of Greek in churches and schools. This marked the commencement of the Macedonian revival, which was expressed in two directions: in the direction of an integration of all Slavs under Turkish domination and in the direction of a completely independent national development. Hence the question of the literary standard at the time was posed in two contexts: on the one hand, some took the standpoint that a common literary standard should be established for Bulgarians and Macedonians in such a way that it would equally include Bulgarian and Macedonian linguistic characteristics; on the other hand, there was the standpoint of those known as "Macedonists", who pointed out that the Macedonians, as a separate people, should build their own separate literary standard. Both standpoints agreed in their opposition to the introduction of the Bulgarian literary standard into Macedonia. This position gave rise to the movement supporting the publication of special textbooks for Macedonian schools, in which the language essentially continued the written Macedonian tradition to date. All this was an expression of the fact that among the Slavs in Turkey two national and cultural centres were established, as was borne out by subsequent historical developments. The unfavourable historical circumstances at the time did not provide opportunities for accomplishing more in the building of a Macedonian literary standard. A significant contribution to the analysis of this question was made somewhat later by Krste P. Misirkov's book "On Macedonian Matters" (Sofia, 1903), which was a kind of synthesis of all previous attempts at establishing Macedonian literacy, and pointed to the possible subsequent directions in the national and cultural development of the Macedonian people, where Misirkov considers the establishment of a Macedonian literary standard a task of prime importance. He was the first to analyze the question of its popular base, stating that it should rely on central Macedonian speech-forms. What Misirkov formulated with regard to the building of the Macedonian literary standard approached its realization in the period following the First World War, in spite of the fact that after the Balkan Wars the Macedonian people was divided among the neighbouring Balkan states. It was of crucial importance that the Macedonian people's aspirations towards liberation were widely supported by the progressive movement. In the 1930s, literary activity in Macedonian gained new strength. This was a time of a closer association of Macedonian intellectuals on a common cultural platform, which greatly encouraged the development of supra-dialectal linguistic links. The process was hampered by the ban on the use of the Macedonian language in public life (in education, the press, etc.), but could not be halted. It gained momentum in the years of the Second World War with the activity of the national liberation movement. During the war, a significant and extensive collection of written material in Macedonian was produced, and towards the end of the war regular brigade and other newspapers and journals were published (Ilindenski pat, Mlad borec, Nova Makedonija, etc.). Although this material was not linguistically standardized, it quite clearly reflected the desire to write in a common standard form based on central speech-forms. All this made possible a prompt solution to the question of the standard in the very first months following the liberation, when only a slight standardization of the literary language and its orthography had to be carried out on the basis which had already been established in its previous development. The Macedonian language was proclaimed the official language of the Republic of Macedonia during the war, at the First Session of the Antifascist Assembly of 'the National Liberation of Macedonia, held on August 2, 1944, in the Monastery of St. Prohor of Pchinja. Its standardization was completed with the adoption of the alphabet (May 3, 1945) and the orthography (June 7, 1945) on the proposal of the Language and Orthography Commission. In the years of its free life which followed it swiftly grew into a fully-formed modern standard literary language.

[airwings]

Hugh Poulton mention as about the creation of the Skopjan alphabete(Who are the Macedonians, page 116)



In Yugoslav Macedonia the new authorities quickly set about consolidating their position. The new nation needed a written language, and initially the spoken dialect of northern Macedonia was chosen as the basis for the Macedonian language. However, this was deemed too close to Serbian and the dialects of Bitola-Veles became the norm.(1) These dialects were closer to the literary language of Bulgaria but because the latter was based on the eastern Bulgarian dialects, it allowed enough differentiation for the Yugoslavs to claim it as a language distinct from Bulgarian-a point which Bulgaria has bitterly contested ever since(2).

In fact the differentiation between the Macedonian and Bulgarian dialects becomes progressively less pronounced on an east-west basis. Macedonian shares nearly all the same distinct characteristics which separate Bulgarian from other Slav languages lack of cases, the post-positive definite article, replacement of the infinitive form, and preservation of the simple verbal forms for the past and imperfect tenses-but whether it is truly a different language from Bulgarian or merely a dialect of it is a moot point.

The alphabet was accepted on 3 May 1945 and the orthography on 7 June 1945, and the first primer in the new language appeared by 1946, in which year a Macedonian Department in the Faculty of Philosophy at the University of Skopje was also founded.

A grammar of the Macedonian literary language appeared in 1952, and the Institute for the Macedonian Language "Krste P' Misirkov" was founded the following year. Since the Second world 'war the new republic has used the full weight of the education system and the bureaucracy to make the new language common parlance, and indeed it is noticeable that old people still tend to speak a mixture of dialects which include obvious Serbianisms and Bulgarianisms, while those young enough to have gone through the education system in its entirety speak_ a 'purer' Macedonian
.

The newest language at the Balkans!!!!

[israel]

Re: Macedonian being a new language. I think some people may be confusing the codification of a common (literary) language with inception of a language.

All languages have been spoken for longer than they have been written. The codification of a language standard does not suggest the formation of a new language. It also does not provide evidence of how long that language had been spoken before codification of the common standard.

Finally, linguistic boundaries and definitions of languages do not prove or disprove notions of identity and national belonging. I think people in this debate are using poor evidence to prove a political point.

regards.

[tsunami]

All languages have been spoken for longer than they have been written. The codification of a language standard does not suggest the formation of a new language. It also does not provide evidence of how long that language had been spoken before codification of the common standard.


That is true, however in this particular case, the codification of a language by using the North Fyrom dialect, the one closer to SERB instead of the South which was the majority of the speakers and closer to Bulgar, in combination with a New Church and autonomous federative status by Tito, it does imply the creation of a new ethnicity.


On its own, yes you are right, but the codification in this particular case took place along with other stuff as well.

And since i see you are being skeptic about the Macedonian Issue....read this please:

http://www.azure.org.il/magazine/magazine.asp?id=347

Maybe through Israeli media, you shall get a less biased view of this particualr subject.

And P.S. i truly suggest you read the whole thread, not just some remarks.

[israel]

The article you linked to is pointing out the problems of making political claims based on genetic research - and this is true. There is no doubt about that.

The idea that RoM/FYRoM wants Greek land and is running a campaign to regain it is based more on conspiracy theory than fact.

The use of genetics to prove ancestry and territorial rights is a tool of nationalists and extremists (or uneducated people). This much the article has proved. It even says: "Macedonian nationalists want Greece back, or at least its northern provinces." Note the nationalists part.

Finally, Israeli or Jewish media is extremely varied and ranges from far right to far left. This article mentions Macedonia for a single specific reason: to undermine the Palestinian claim to land and historical ancestry. I question the depth to which the authous understand or care about the Macedonians or Sami of Nth Scandinavia (also mentioned in the text).

All this aside, the original post was on the topic of the Macedonian language and its similarities to Serb/Bulgarian. Genetics and ancestry are a different topic (even though they may be related, in your view, to the argument against a slavic Macedonian ethnicity).

regards.

[tsunami]

The use of genetics to prove ancestry and territorial rights is a tool of nationalists and extremists (or uneducated people).

Fyrom governement anyone?

This is state sponsored propaganda. ;)

The scheme is one which started with the language, then the Church, then the autonomous status, then the known Letter of Alexander, then the genetics study.

Currently the renaming of Skopjes airport to Alexander the Great, and a few days later Fyroms governemnt did not allow the Presidential plane to cross over their airspace, because they are irritated when our PM declared that he is a Macedonian along with another 2.5 million Greeks in the Council of Europe.

In other words Fyrom is a joke.

[tsunami]

And just for the fun of it:

Israel read this quote, please and i think that you shall be fully convinced about the so called "Macedonians":

"Since the Bulgarian idea, as it is well known to all, is deeply rooted in Macedonia, I think it is almost impossible to shake it completely by opposing it merely with the Serbian idea. We need an idea which could attract the people and their feelings and thus sever them from Bulgarianism. This ally I see in the Macedonism or to a certain extent in our nursing the Macedonian dialect and Macedonian separatism."

-Novakovich to the Serbian Minister of Education, 1888:

[Philip]

Btw...Except from several thousands slavophones in greece that vote for the Ouranio Toxo party and call their language macedonian, the majority calls it Dopia which they recognise as a bulgarian dialect.

I wish some of our slavophone greeks were here guys. I don't want to speak for their account. I've asked Preston to come over but he is usually too busy for this.

[Slavs]

Btw...Except from several thousands slavophones in greece that vote for the Ouranio Toxo party and call their language macedonian, the majority calls it Dopia which they recognise as a bulgarian dialect.

I wish some of our slavophone greeks were here guys. I don't want to speak for their account. I've asked Preston to come over but he is usually too busy for this.

it will be really interesting to speak with slavic speakers from Greece :trampolin

[WisdomSeeker]

Except from several thousands slavophones in greece that vote for the Ouranio Toxo party

Ouranio Toxo got circa 3800 votes in the elections of 95. everybody can see the official results of the elections online :)

They did not run for the next national elections,and for the european elections they got like 6,800 votes.

The conclusions are yours to make...

[israel]

It seems to me that the Greek side in this debate outnumbers the Macedonian one about 5:1. There are only a few Macedonians who post on here and many of them just copy-paste large chunks of poorly referenced/informed info which is of no value to a debate. But this is not enough to condemn their "side" as ignorant.

I agree it would be interesting to get Greek Slavophone opinion. However, a side/opinion/stance with more numbers/members does not mean it is the only one that speaks truth.

2 languages that resemble each other may be classified as dialects, or as different languages. There is as much politics as there is linguistics in that decision. I personally believe that attemps to "prove" or "explain" away the existence/validity of Macedonian people or identity is absurd. It is just as absurd as people from that country (RoM/FYRoM) claiming they are the original people of the Balkans or direct descendents of Alexander.

regards.

[Makeveli]

There just slavs, thats all, and they have Serbian blood, not Greek or what ever ...

It's proven so many times ...

And now they try to "steel" someone elses history O.o
They should by proud of there Serbian history :)

They speak Serbian and are Serbs ... Come home to your brothers so you never walk alone :)

[Alalzia]

I just dont get this "slavophones" thing, there are +1.000.000 albanian speakers in greece (without counting immigrants), so what? There are also +100.000 aromanian speakers,150.000 turkish speakers , 35.000 pomachi and 200.000 hindu speakers (gypsies) ; since when language indicates nationality?
Lianis is a slavophone from Florina and he served various times as minister ,did he ever set a minority issue?
Averov was an aromanian speaker , iirc 2 time PM of greece, afaik he never made any minority comment.
(if you read today's sportime panoutsos wrote that) Greek navy used arvanitika to communicate during balkan wars and wars against turkey because english advisors of the turkish fleet was also speaking greek.
There is at least one gypsie in the greek parliament and for many who know him (giakoumatos) he is as fierce patriot as no greek "dna owner" ever was.

On the fyromian language itself take a look on its location it is in the center of the balkans so naturally all languages are mixed there (although the absence of greek is notable) now if we are going to grand or not to grand this balkanian esperando the title of a unique language i guess it is a personal thing.

[airwings]

if anyone want to talk with the Slavphones Greeks is free to go in

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/

There are several Slavphones and most of them are descents of diaspora Greeks.

@Alalzia dont forget that the new nomarch in Florina is also billiteral Greek.:)

[Kula]

35.000 pomachi
.


Aren't they slavophone too?

[Slavs]

There just slavs, thats all, and they have Serbian blood, not Greek or what ever ...

It's proven so many times ...

And now they try to "steel" someone elses history O.o
They should by proud of there Serbian history :)

They speak Serbian and are Serbs ... Come home to your brothers so you never walk alone :)

:doh:
serbian history O.o
where are the common points between serbian and macs history :?

[..Jovan..]

They speak Serbian and are Serbs
No Macedonians speak Macedonian and they are Macedonian.

[airwings]

No Macedonians speak Macedonian and they are Macedonian.
I am Macedonian and I speak Greek, just in case that you forget who is Macedonian(Makedonci or Makedonas):roll: and who are the habitants of the Macedonia.

[..Jovan..]

I am Macedonian and I speak Greek, just in case that you forget who is Macedonian(Makedonci or Makedonas):roll: and who are the habitants of the Macedonia.

To me they are Macedonians too, it is my will to call them Macedonian if i want to. To me they are Makedonci and Macedonians.

[airwings]

To me they are Macedonians too, it is my will to call them Macedonian if i want to. To me they are Makedonci and Macedonians.
I dont have any problem to call them as Macedonian(Makedonci) but as also Macedonian (Makedonas) must also respect my self-determination.

Just for the record, FYROM in the last UN envoy proposal as about the name issue rejected the Slavic term Makedonjia (oximoron) as definitive determination by accepted the usage of the English term Macedonia. This is the policy of the supposing self-determination policy of the FYROMacedonians, to prefer the English terms and reject the native.

[tsunami]

To me they are Macedonians too, it is my will to call them Macedonian if i want to. To me they are Makedonci and Macedonians.
Why Jovan?

Care to explain, your reason.

[..Jovan..]

Why Jovan?

Care to explain, your reason.

Knew this was coming LOL

well i don't really care about the history and that ive always known them as Macedonians, so that's it

now dont shower me with articles it won't interest me

[Vojvoda]

I am Macedonian and I speak Greek,

:trampolin

My macedonian brother. But Greek is not yous maternal language (read Plutah). :book:
Im sure you look more like me, than like Greeks from Athen.

[Makeveli]

:trampolin

My macedonian brother. But Greek is not yous maternal language (read Plutah). :book:
Im sure you look more like me, than like Greeks from Athen.

You guys are slavic, you look slavic, you speak serbian (or slavic macedonian, thats just a serbian dialect) , you don't have any connection with acient Macedonians ..

Now you can call yourself whatever you want, i really don't care ... But i wounder, why do you deny your real history, is it not possible that we have the same history BUT that you seperated and now have your own identity .. ?

Just like the history of Netherlands, before Vlaanderen (now part of Belgian) was part of the Netherlands, so they where Dutch people to. Now they know there History and they do not deny that, why would they do that in the first place :?
Whats the point, now you can call yourself whatever you want, but don't deny your history ....

:old:

[Kula]

The last thing you can call Macedonian is a Serbian dialect but whatever.

[Alalzia]

Aren't they slavophone too?

Im not at all familiar with their language since they do not usually immigrate to athens , if you say they speak slavonic i have no reason to oppose that.

[WisdomSeeker]

My macedonian brother. But Greek is not yous maternal language (read Plutah).

i will read ,if you tell me who Plutah is:? :P

[Kula]

That's ghetto talk for Plutarch:char089:

[WisdomSeeker]

That's ghetto talk for Plutarch:char089:

Ohh,now i got it maaaannn...

You mean that duuudeee who wrote:

''Parallel lives of the noble Greeks and Romans.''

Coool:D :whistling :P

[Alalzia]

Your ignorance makes me sick.
Plutah is Micky Mouse's dog

[airwings]

:trampolin

My macedonian brother. But Greek is not yous maternal language (read Plutah). :book:
Im sure you look more like me, than like Greeks from Athen.
Macedonian brother I like the below quote of Plutarch, do you ?

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/6290/scan10079yr0.jpg




Again, however, Fortune stirred up Thebes against him, and thrust in his pathway a war with Greeks, and the dread necessity of punishing, by means of slaughter and fire and sword, men that were his kith and kin, a necessity which had a most unpleasant ending.
[Virtue, 11]



If you dont undertand something let me know Macedonian brother:)

[Philip]

It seems to me that the Greek side in this debate outnumbers the Macedonian one about 5:1. There are only a few Macedonians who post on here and many of them just copy-paste large chunks of poorly referenced/informed info which is of no value to a debate. But this is not enough to condemn their "side" as ignorant.


They have been more of them. But after some attempts they left the battlefield.



I agree it would be interesting to get Greek Slavophone opinion. However, a side/opinion/stance with more numbers/members does not mean it is the only one that speaks truth.


I have sent some mails to them. I hope someone shows up. ;) I just think it would be interresting, since some talk on behalf of them without actually even meeting anyone.

As if they are speaking the truth or not can be validated by residents of FYROM easily, since they can question them in their language and get a perfectly formulated response ;)

[Philip]

:trampolin

My macedonian brother. But Greek is not yous maternal language (read Plutah). :book:
Im sure you look more like me, than like Greeks from Athen.

There are no standard athenians anymore. Athens has Greeks from every single place of Hellas and Cyprus.

But in any case, since I live in Athens (I'm not from there) he might be like me as well ;)

So, as we say in Macedonian...Izela ;)

[Vojvoda]

But in any case, since I live in Athens (I'm not from there) he might be like me as well ;)


Sure, if you came from Macedonia.

[Philip]

Sure, if you came from Macedonia.

My grandfather was. ;) My grandmother was from Bythinia.

[Vojvoda]

i will read ,if you tell me who Plutah is:? :P

It's useless. You cant understand.
:gen020:

[Vojvoda]

If you dont undertand something let me know Macedonian brother:)


Please explain this:
... Aleksandar became very upset and start to speak Macedonian ...

What is this :?

[tsunami]

Are you dreaming Vojvoda?

Exactly what is this? R u sure its not a product of your imagination.

Or else i am sure you can provide us with the author, in the original, and a scientific translation.

Patris sermo anybody?

[WisdomSeeker]

It's useless. You cant understand.
:gen020:


On the contrary my makedonec friend, i can read and understand him PERFECTLY from the prototype.

What about you? Can you read Plutarch?

[Venstar]

It was very interesting to me to see a Greek guy giving analysis of the macedonian language.

However, guys, it's a waste of time. According to the todays issued of Dnevnik (http://www.dnevnik.com.mk/?ItemID=62563F7317C80D4689F94090615C89B5 ), the macedonian language will disapeare till the middle of the century. This was said by the director of the National Library in Skopie.

Regards,
Venelin

[airwings]

The problem that this Greek guy use as source a scholar that he

was speaker of this Slavonic language that created in 1944
was speaker of the Slavonic language that speaking in Macedonia from the Greek Slavphones since(at least) in the middle of the 19th century.
was the biggest linquistic in the modern Greek era. He spoken 11 languages!!!!
His work is the main source from many modern writers (Poulton, Mazower, Karakasidou,Danforth)that have write as about the new-born state and its new-born language.

[Slavs]

Dnevnik, Macedonia: Slav-Macedonians and Bulgarians are one and the same – just like the Ghegi and Toski tribes
10 February 2007 | 12:21 | FOCUS News Agency
Skopje. The Slav-Macedonians and Bulgarians are the same, just like the Ghegi and Toski tribes. This was sate yesterday evening by the French political scientist Serge Mettais during a lecture in the cultural center in Skopje, the Macedonian daily Dnevnik reports in an article with a subtitle ‘French humiliation in Skopje’.
When answering to a question whether the Toski and Ghegi tribes are different people, Mettais, who is a University teacher said that the difference was just like the difference between Slav-Macedonians and Bulgarians.


the poor "macedonians" :~(

[Thorn]

French political scientist Serge Mettais
the poor "macedonians" :~(

Yes...Frech political scientist...not either linguist, not even a historian but, payed propagandist....I would have said the same comment for this guy like you said for Horace Lunt but, this Serge guy is not eve worth for commenting

[airwings]

Yes...Frech political scientist...not either linguist, not even a historian but, payed propagandist....I would have said the same comment for this guy like you said for Horace Lunt but, this Serge guy is not eve worth for commenting
Boshevski and Prof. Dr. Aristotel Tentov Institute of Computer Technique and Informatics at the Faculty of Electrical Engineering in Skopje recently have deciphered the mysterious text......:trampolin :trampolin :trampolin :trampolin

they are not either linquists, not even historians, not even epigraphologists..... just payed propagandists:)

[Thorn]

Boshevski and Prof. Dr. Aristotel Tentov Institute of Computer Technique and Informatics at the Faculty of Electrical Engineering in Skopje recently have deciphered the mysterious text......

they are not either linquists, not even historians, not even epigraphologists..... just payed propagandists:)
And you couldn't hold yourself...could you? :)

Actually, they are not payed at all ;) Believe me, if they were payed, there would be world wide campaign for that ;) They are just some people that work on something that everyone leave question marks....Let them pull out all of that work and then we will talk, ok?

BTW, I found it funny that you made a connection between Macedonian language and the Rozetta stone letter :) That prooves that even you are making similarity ;) Thank you :victory:

[airwings]

And you couldn't hold yourself...could you? :)

Actually, they are not payed at all ;) Believe me, if they were payed, there would be world wide campaign for that ;) They are just some people that work on something that everyone leave question marks....Let them pull out all of that work and then we will talk, ok?

...and without RESPONCE:trampolin

[Thorn]

...and without RESPONCE:trampolin
I didn't really get your thought...?

[airwings]

I didn't really get your thought...?

Liljana Ristova:
With regards to your discovery what kind of reaction did you get from the FYROMacedonian intellectuals and from corresponding world institutions?

Professor Boshevski:
Up no now there has been no significant reaction. The publication we printed was well accepted and is receiving attention in creating interest locally as well as in some European circles. We sent an electronic version to various world centers, including the Institute of Eastern Languages in Chicago, to Oxford, to London and to Germany. We can’t expect immediate reactions; it takes time to interpret our results before people can truly understand our discovery. What we found will shake the foundations of our contemporary understanding. Everything up to now that has been written about the Ancient Macedonians can’t easily change. A great deal has been invested in the creation of our current understanding and now we appear with our findings out of nowhere telling everyone they were wrong. A lot of time will pass before people are comfortable with the idea, before it sinks in and before we see any reactions. In the meantime we will stand by our convictions and be at everyone’s disposal to conduct dialog and eventually solve this problem.


SOURCE
Interview with Professor Tome Boshevski, member of M.A.N.U.
Ancient Macedonian words found in the Modern FYROMacedonian Language
By Liljana Ristova
Canadian-FYROMacedonian News” in Toronto in January 2007

...and without RESPONCE:trampolin :trampolin

[Thorn]

...and without RESPONCE:trampolin :trampolin

There is a Macedonian proverb that says: „Трпение - спасение“ or in translation: "Patience - Salvation"

Wait a little...don't hursh :)

[Slavs]

Yes...Frech political scientist...not either linguist, not even a historian but, payed propagandist....I would have said the same comment for this guy like you said for Horace Lunt but, this Serge guy is not eve worth for commenting

След разясненията, дадени от посланика, думата взе Мете, който явно не беше обезпокоен от дипломатическия скандал, който евентуално може да предизвика констатацията му, че "българите и македонците имат общ език: българския".
"Говоря като човек. Аз съм свободен човек и не представлявам френската държава, не съм чиновник и се смятам за свободен европеец", потвърди пред вестник "Лайм" изследователят Серж Мете, който се вписва в групата на учените, независими от политиката, и има доста критична позиция, срещаща възраженията на държава, заради начина, по който се разглежда идеята за народ във Франция.

payed by whom Thorn ????
it look to me like personal position
every1 who don`t accept your ideas is payed ,but the others are not ???
the diference is also notisable ,the french guy have not worked with bulgarians and Horace Lunt have writen books with Blaze Konevski
Blaze ideas are even rejected by other macedonian historians and are counted as propaganda
cuz of such "historians" like Mr Lunt you can see such stupidities:


British Library Changes Explanatory Note that Vidin Gospel is in “Macedonian Church-Slavonic” Language
12 January 2007 | 09:43 | FOCUS News Agency
Sofia/London. British Library has changed the scandalous text of the explanatory note reading that the Vidin Four Gospels are written in “Macedonian Church-Slavonic” language. The medieval manuscript is exhibited in the library. Now the note points to a more neutral term – Slavonic language.

[Thorn]

In fact, the French Culture center in Macedonia, officially briefed that Serge Mettais's statement is his personal opinion, and it is not an offitial statement from the French government or University institutions including the French culture center....so, you are pulling a mad man over here....

I'm not trying to say that there are no similarities between out languages, but you can't say mad thoughts....There are similarities with the Russian and with the Serbian...with the Montenego...Kazakhstans.......and?? Does that prove something?

[airwings]

There is a Macedonian proverb that says: „Трпение - спасение“ or in translation: "Patience - Salvation"

Wait a little...don't hursh :)
of course.....8 months have passed since the announcement....:)

[Venstar]

In fact, the French Culture center in Macedonia, officially briefed that Serge Mettais's statement is his personal opinion, and it is not an offitial statement from the French government or University institutions including the French culture center....so, you are pulling a mad man over here....

I'm not trying to say that there are no similarities between out languages, but you can't say mad thoughts....There are similarities with the Russian and with the Serbian...with the Montenego...Kazakhstans.......and?? Does that prove something?

Thorn,
where do you live? Have you spoken with Bulgarians, Serbians, Russians and Kazakhs on their language? Or probably with Turks and Greeks? If the similarity is based on single words or their number only, you can claim closenes of the language you speak to any of these. Even to French, English and German. I am sure you use some English and German words.

However for the linguists the language structure is what matters. And here inspite of the years of Serbian influence it is clear that our two languages are as close as no others.

If we speak for the language spoken in Macedonia 100 years ago you would realize that it was pure Bulgarian. (Have you read the Manifest of Yane Sandanski?) It is your problem that you need help to understand what have your grand-grad-fathers wrote, not our, not their.

I had the chance to see the great work (http://www.misirkov.org/zmr.htm)of the Macedonian #1 for the XX century Krste Misirkov. Have you read it? I do not know if it was original or adaptation to the modern FYROMian language (on the site they claim to have the Photo-typogragraphic edition, but the link is corrupt, so I could not compare). What I saw was terrible. It was a mixture of Bulgarian and Russian words most of them with such a twisted and modified spelling that one should have a great imagination to understand them. With the only goal to make them distinct from the Bulgarian. I am sure that the most of the now-a-days FYROMians have difficulties to read it in original. This would not be a great problem if they did not claim that he has laid the foundation of the modern Macedonian language.

In the attempt to make the Bulgarian language Macedonian you have actually managed to make it macedoine.

I was not able to find the typographic edition of "On the Macedonian matters" but I found a Bulgarian site about him (http://www.macedoniainfo.com/Krste_Misirkov.htm). In English. There one can find some of his statements as they were printed in the newspapers. Interesting and worth of reading.

Regards,
Venelin

[Venstar]

There is a Macedonian proverb that says: „Трпение - спасение“ or in translation: "Patience - Salvation"

Wait a little...don't hursh :)

Do you know John 8:32?

Regards,
Venelin

[Alalzia]

17. The Serbs are much inferior than we are
......
Scaling inferiority is phun i know
.....
Interesting reading although totally propagandist.

[Slavs]

Why are you waisting your time Venstar O:-)
he is just trying to confuse not slavic speakers comparing all this languages
I have first hand expirience this sumer !!!
i worked with two russians ,we tried to comunicate with our native language but failed,in the end we were forced to speak on english
Most of the ppl from the old generation coud easlily speak with russians,since they were teach russian in schools cuz of well know reasons
but for the new generations it`s totaly diferent

the only serbian i spoke were custom-house officers,they probably know alitle bulgarian,but i undeastand better russian texts then serbian ones

[Venstar]

17. The Serbs are much inferior than we are
......
Scaling inferiority is phun i know
.....
Interesting reading although totally propagandist.

Alalzia,
do not forget that these were Krste Misirkov statements, not mine. The reason I refered to this site is to show how often he identifies himself as Bulgarian, how often he claims that Macedonia is pure Bulgarian, that Macedonians are Bulgarians.

These were the statements of Macedonian Number 1 for the 20th century
:doh::doh::doh:

I do not think that we can compare nations and put label on them. There are no good or bad nations. There are nations (or at least a great number of individuals of it) that in some moment of the history make something wonderful and in some other something awful.

Regards,
Venelin

[Thorn]

If we speak for the language spoken in Macedonia 100 years ago you would realize that it was pure Bulgarian. (Have you read the Manifest of Yane Sandanski?) It is your problem that you need help to understand what have your grand-grad-fathers wrote, not our, not their.


And you just sudenly forgot the reason for that. And also from where actually came that alphabet and language...who accepted it and who spread it...

[WisdomSeeker]

These were the statements of Macedonian Number 1 for the 20th century

Venelin,there is no need in focusing only on Misirkov...What he wrote is available for everyone to see:)

Should we remind ourselves of the rest of slav macedonian's statements about their bulgarian origin perhaps?

It is like we are trying to prove the obvious.

[Alalzia]

Alalzia,
do not forget that these were Krste Misirkov statements, not mine. The reason I refered to this site is to show how often he identifies himself as Bulgarian, how often he claims that Macedonia is pure Bulgarian, that Macedonians are Bulgarians.

I didnt say those are your statements, i just think that his way or writing shows an uneducated person, or even the translation is crap.Still an interesting reading tho.

[Kula]

And you just sudenly forgot the reason for that. And also from where actually came that alphabet and language...who accepted it and who spread it...

The alphabet was first developed by two Greeks - Cyril and Methodius, the Cyrillic was formed either in Ochrid or Preslav both in what was then Bulgaria. This is the official version, your version (whatever it is) may be correct, but it's not recognized by anyone and not written in history books.


Venstar, the language in Misirkov's book is actually quite close to the modern literary Macedonian, it's just written with Russian cyrillic and looks very messy.

[Venstar]

And you just sudenly forgot the reason for that. And also from where actually came that alphabet and language...who accepted it and who spread it...

Let me try to remember.

Two Byzantine officials the brothers Constantine the Philosopher (also known with his monk name Cyril) and Methodius were sent by the Byzantine emperor on an official mission first to the Khazars and later to the Slavs. They invented a writing system (alphabet) that suits the specifics of the Slavic speech and started to translate the liturgical books. This is the Glagolic alphabet. For this they are honoured as the apostles of the Slavs. The Slav liturgical books were approved and blessed by the Pope in Rome and Methodius was appointed bishop in a Roman province of Moravia. There were tensions with the German clergy and in some years the two Byzantine officials died. Their disciples were persecuted and scattered. The Bulgarian monarch king Boris appealed that five of them be released (the apocrypha day because they were Bulgarian officials) and sheltered them in Bulgaria. He (the king) appointed them as teachers of his folk. He provided them with servants, buildings, money and other materials needed for their work. Two educational centres were established - Preslav (the capital city) and Ochrid (in Kutmichevitza or the Low Land as it was known in that time), headed by Naum and Climent. Climent was appointed bishop of a diocese in Kutmichevitza (he has never been a bishop of Ochrid) by the king and was directly subjected to the king. Sometime later it turned that the Glagolic script is difficult to write and the new script, the Cyrillic, was introduced. It contains some Greek letters and some specific ones. It was devoted to Cyril but it was not invented by him.
The new scripts were accepted very quickly by the Bulgarian population and in short time only in Ochrid more than 3000 scribes were educated who then worked in other parts of the country (Which one? Correct, Bulgaria!). Many books were translated from Greek and Latin. Many books were written.
This is the first Bulgarian Golden Age.
Whose official policy was the education of so many scribes? Who paid them?
Mmm...? No!:thumbdown
Bulgaria! There was no such country as Macedonia. There was only a Byzantine province with this name.

At this time Bulgaria was the only country where the Cyrillic azbuka (alpha-bet comes from Greek, while Az-Bouka are the names of the first two Cyrillic letters) was used and thus preserved. Later, Bulgarian scribes help the converted Russians and the relationships that were established were very important some centuries later when the Ottomans conquered Bulgaria. Then many Bulgarian books were rescued in Russia while lots of other were destroyed by the Turks or Greeks. That's why for many people the Cyrillic is the Russian alphabet.

If you disagree with some of the above, please, provide historical documents.

Regards,
Venelin

[Venstar]

Venstar, the language in Misirkov's book is actually quite close to the modern literary Macedonian, it's just written with Russian cyrillic and looks very messy.

Messy indeed!
And unusual when compared with the modern Macedonian texts.

Regards,
Venelin

[Thorn]

The alphabet was first developed by two Greeks - Cyril and Methodius
Since when, the people with slavic origin are "Greeks" ?

[Venstar]

Since when, the people with slavic origin are "Greeks" ?

I think that the correct term is "Byzantine official".

Do you have documents revealing the true ethnic origin of these two?

Regards,
Venelin

[tsunami]

Their ethnic affiliations are very hard to "prove", because everyone was equal to the law.

The language pioneers ethnic origin can only be what we call a Greek today or what we call a Bulgarian.

At the time 1000's the Byzantine Empire had an overwhelming Greek character, ofc the Bulgarians were present, but only in specific parts of the country.

Their work leads us to the conclusion that they were fluent in both languages.

[Kula]

Since when, the people with slavic origin are "Greeks" ?

What exactly proves their Slavic origins. I admit there's no actual written source that states they were Greek, the correct term would be as Venstar said Byzantines or romanoi, at that time there were two nations in this particular place the Bulgarian and Byzantine empires. They weren't Bulgarians because they weren't born within Bulgaria. Their further origins are unknown.

Venstar, actually the language is very close to modern Macedonian, it's just the letters that are kind of messed up. It's obviously written in some Macedonian dialect and Misirkov stressed on the pronounciation of the words according to the dialect.

[Venstar]

Their ethnic affiliations are very hard to "prove", because everyone was equal to the law.


That's it!

if we want to claim something we have to be able to show historical evidences. And exactly on the topic of ethnic origin we have very few clues (with the exeption of the elite, whose genealogy was pretty well documented, but yet not proved).

Reagards,
Venelin

[Thorn]

I think that the correct term is "Byzantine official".
The East Roman empire pronounced as "the byzantinum empire" was an "empire" containing a lot of nationalities...There is no ethnic group named "byzantians"...


Do you have documents revealing the true ethnic origin of these two?

For start,here is a letter from the Pope John Paul II to the prime minister of Macedonia:

ADDRESS OF JOHN PAUL II
TO A DELEGATION FROM THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA

Dear Prime Minister,
Distinguished Friends,

The feast of Saints Cyril and Methodius has brought you once more to Rome, where the relics of Saint Cyril are preserved, and I am pleased to greet you. I thank the President of the Government of the Republic of Macedonia for his kind words and good wishes. It is my fervent prayer that your country will be ever strengthened in its commitment to unity and solidarity, ideals which the Holy Brothers of Salonika so effectively embodied in their lives dedicated to preaching the Christian faith.

During their earthly life, these two saintly men were bridges linking East and West. By the values they taught and the example they gave, they brought different cultures and traditions together into one rich heritage for the entire human family. In fact, the witness of their lives reveals an ageless truth that the world of the Third Millennium urgently needs to rediscover: only in charity and justice can peace become a reality enveloping all human hearts, overcoming hatred and conquering evil with good. This charity and justice become tangible realities when people of good will in every part of the globe, like the Brothers Cyril and Methodius, are uncompromisingly committed to "the cause of reconciliation, friendly coexistence, human development and respect for the intrinsic dignity of every nation" (Encyclical Epistle Slavorum Apostoli, 1).

Ladies and Gentlemen, this annual pilgrimage to Rome is not just a tribute to Saint Cyril but is also a testimony to the bonds of friendship existing between your nation and the Catholic Church. I encourage you to see that these bonds grow ever stronger, especially within your local communities, thus producing fruits of increased goodwill and attitudes of greater cooperation towards the Catholic Church in your country. May Almighty God fill your minds and hearts with this peace, and may he abundantly bless the people of the Republic of Macedonia.

And another letter from the new Pope Benedict XVI :

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2005/may/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20050523_minister-macedonia_en.html

This is just to let you know how do the Vatican recognize St. Cyril's and Metodi's origins...I'll show you other documents as well....

[Slavs]

the Misirkov book looks to me like bulgarian with some changed letters and some russian and serbian worlds

total mess is very good description for this work

our west neigbours have created around his personality
ignoring the diferent ideas in other places
i think he was very confused guy , "worthy" to care the title "n1 macedonian"

but this is linquestic topic and even if we count "Za makedoskite raboti" for the first macedonian writed text
Misirkov personality don`t have place in here

I`ll quote part of SoM post ,his ideas can be couted us untrustworty but he say some interesting essence


The South Slavic dialects are essentially the same and form one complete unit which is distinguished by two sub-dialects, one sub-dialect is the Thraco-Macedonian(Macedonian, Bulgarian), the other is the Illyrian(Croat, Serb). So they weren't the same as far as "nationality" was concerned although they did have that common identity as "Sloveni"(Slov meaning word, hence speakers of the same tongue).

so even he admits bulgarian and macedonian are very close ,so the french guy was saying the truth

[Alalzia]

This is so ironic ...

"Later on he was again accused (Methodios) of using the heathen Slavonic language in the celebration of the Mass and in the sacraments. It was a popular idea then, that as there had been three languages, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, inscribed over our Lord on the cross, it would be sacrilegious to use any other language in the service of the Church."

(This was known as "three language heresis" )

"In 870 King Louis and the German bishops summoned Methodius to a synod at Ratisbon. Here he was deposed and condemned to prison. After three years he was liberated at the command of Pope John VIII and reinstated as Archbishop of Moravia. He zealously endeavoured to spread the Faith among the Bohemians, and also among the Poles in Northern Moravia. Soon, however, he was summoned to Rome again in consequence of the allegations of the German priest Wiching, who impugned his orthodoxy, and objected to the use of Slavonic in the liturgy. But John VIII, after an inquiry, sanctioned the Slavonic Liturgy, decreeing, however, that in the Mass the Gospel should be read first in Latin and then in Slavonic."

Did anyone mentioned that Methodios's students in Bohemia was sold as slaves by the Popists?

Things are changing wherever fit us eh?

[WisdomSeeker]

Thorn we have already discussed about the ethnic origin of the Apostles of the Slavs.

Professors Ivan Lazaroff, Plamen Pavloff, Ivan Tyutyundzijeff and Milko Palangurski of the Faculty of History of Sts. Cyril and Methodius University in Veliko Tŭrnovo, Bulgaria in their book, Kratka istoriya na bŭlgarskiya narod (Short History of the Bulgarian Nation, pp 36-38), state very explicitly that the two brothers were Hellenes (Greeks) from Thessaloniki.

The late Oscar Halecki, Professor of Eastern European History, in his book Borderlands of Western Civilization, A History of East Central Europe (chapter Moravian State and the Apostles of the Slavs) agrees with the authors of Kratka istoriya na bŭlgarskiya narod.


It is funny indeed when you post a document taken from the Vatican. Unfortunately,in that document it does not describe their ethnic origins,like this one:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_31121980_egregiae-virtutis_lt.html


Cyrillus autem et Methodius fratres, Graeci, Thessalonicae nati,

It is a Vatican document as well,an omelia of a Slav Pople (John Paul II). Is it possible for a Slav Pope to spread ''anti-slavic propaganda'' maybe?:roll:

Dont forget that only Cyrill knew slavic,Methodius learnt it during his studies,this means slavic was NOT HIS MOTHERTONGUE.

[WisdomSeeker]

btw,here is their genealogical tree:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/macedonia/genealogikodentromethodioukurrilou.jpg




both their parents were greeks. Learn your religious history Thorn! Dont mix orthodoxy with politics!:bash:

[Venstar]

The East Roman empire pronounced as "the byzantinum empire" was an "empire" containing a lot of nationalities...There is no ethnic group named "byzantians"...
Correct! I have never said they are "byzantians" by origin. I have said they are Byzantine officials or officials of the Byzantium empire (or Byzantine emperor). There were lots of Greeks, Jews, some Bulgarians, Serbs etc.

What I am currious about is how can you determine their origin. Please, give some historical proofs.



For start,here is a letter from the Pope John Paul II to the prime minister of Macedonia:

ADDRESS OF JOHN PAUL II
TO A DELEGATION FROM THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA

Dear Prime Minister,
Distinguished Friends,
...
And another letter from the new Pope Benedict XVI :

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2005/may/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20050523_minister-macedonia_en.html

This is just to let you know how do the Vatican recognize St. Cyril's and Metodi's origins...I'll show you other documents as well....

First of all the correct title of this address is

ADDRESS OF JOHN PAUL II
TO A DELEGATION FROM THE FORMER
YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA
Friday, 23 May 2003



Dear Prime Minister,
Distinguished Friends,

The feast of Saints Cyril and Methodius has brought you once more to Rome, where the relics of Saint Cyril are preserved, and I am pleased to greet you. I thank the President of the Government of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia for his kind words and good wishes. It is my fervent prayer that your country will be ever strengthened in its commitment to unity and solidarity, ideals which the Holy Brothers of Salonika so effectively embodied in their lives dedicated to preaching the Christian faith....



See here (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2003/may/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20030523_macedonia_en.html). May I ack you why do you so constantly fail to quote correctly official documents? Do you think this would increase the thrustability of your propaganda?


Second, I could not understand where is the claim of origin. Should I assume that they are FYROMians?

Also, for you information:
Through their disciples, the mission of Cyril and Methodius was marvellously consolidated in Bulgaria. Here, thanks to Saint Clement of Ohrid, dynamic centres of monastic life were founded, and here the Cyrillic alphabet greatly developed. From here also Christianity spread to other lands, until it reached, via nearby Romania, the ancient Kievan Rus’, and then spread towards Moscow and other regions eastward.

Guess where is this from!
From the same Pope. You can find the above in his address (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2002/may/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20020524_world-culture-bulgaria_en.html) during his visit in Bulgaria. You can find plenty of addresses during this visit or related to the visit of some Bulgarian delagation in Vatican.

The fact that the Pope puts Romania in the same time frame with Kiev Rus makes me feel bad about his historical knowledge. During the First Bulgarian Empire great part of current Romania was part of Bulgaria, so it was not other land:whistling

Regards,
Venelin

[Venstar]

btw,here is their genealogical tree:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/macedonia/genealogikodentromethodioukurrilou.jpg




both their parents were greeks. Learn your religious history Thorn! Dont mix orthodoxy with politics!:bash:

WS,
Thanks for the tree and the letter. According to this letter, the brothers worked in Magna Moravia. However I am not sure in this Magna (Great).

Do you have some sources to justify the tree?

Regards,
Venelin

[Slavs]

Venstar all history in HISTORY treads pls
this is Languages & Linguistics after all

[Venstar]

Venstar all history in HISTORY treads pls
this is Languages & Linguistics after all

Sorry:surrender

[airwings]

That's it!

if we want to claim something we have to be able to show historical evidences. And exactly on the topic of ethnic origin we have very few clues (with the exeption of the elite, whose genealogy was pretty well documented, but yet not proved).

Reagards,
Venelin
Writer mention as about the Cyril funeral in Rome

“Apostolic (Pope) ordered everyone in the Rome Hellenes, as also and the Romans to come with wax candle and chant for Him”
Bios Cyril (9TH Cent), XVIII, page 14

Pope ordered first the Greeks (not Byzantines) to honor theirs Saint and after call the Romans.

“give all the prisoners that you have, Hellenes; will be the best gift of me”
Bios Cyril (9TH Cent), XI, page 19

Hahanos of the Hazar Land proposed to Cyril to give to him many gifts.He asked Greeks , not Buzantines!!

[WisdomSeeker]

It seems that Thorn has just been caught up with his hands in the jar again.:)

Venstar,i took the family tree from another forum,i will search for it online when i will have more time.

It must be not difficult to find relevant sources ,i guess. A fact that is certain is that their father,Leon,was a direct relative by blood of the empress Irene the Athenian.If you google for her,he is brought up.


And Slavs is right,this is a linguistical thread..hehe,sorry Slavs.:)

ON TOPIC please,gentlemen.

[Thorn]

Leon is Greek...
Mary is from Slav origin...

so?

The fact remains that St. Clement and Naum, continued their way of education...Macedonians...

P.S. Venstar, Vatican recognized Macedonia under its constitutional name, and so did Bulgaria...You use the term ***M because....?

[***Sanya***]

Guys stop fighting.:)

[Slavs]

The fact remains that St. Clement and Naum, continued their way of education...Macedonians...

P.S. Venstar, Vatican recognized Macedonia under its constitutional name, and so did Bulgaria...You use the term ***M because....?

Macedonians ?? Nope
macedonians were on the other side fighting for Byzantinum empire
The cyrrilic alphabet was spread in Bulgaria with
knez Boris I help
Bulgaria did recognize you under your constitutional name cuz we don`t have any pretentious for the ancient-macedonians,yet we don`t recognize you us etnicity,we don`t recognize your language and your church
calling you macedonians is no problem for us
since macedonians for us means bulgarians
If you go to Bulgaria and say "i`m macedonian", every person who don`t know your agenda will accept you us bulgarian

[Kula]

Leon is Greek...
Mary is from Slav origin...

so?

The fact remains that St. Clement and Naum, continued their way of education...Macedonians...


First of all there was no country Macedonia at that time so as a nationality they weren't Macedonians. Second, it is not exactly know where they were born they might have even been Czech.

[Venstar]

Leon is Greek...
Mary is from Slav origin...

so?

The fact remains that St. Clement and Naum, continued their way of education...Macedonians...

P.S. Venstar, Vatican recognized Macedonia under its constitutional name, and so did Bulgaria...You use the term ***M because....?

Who told you that Maria (not Mary, as you say) is from Slav origin? Ever heard of Jesus and his mother?

I am not going to comment the St. Clement stuff. Already given one quote, and this would bring us totally out of the linguistic domain.

Vatican recognized you? Why then the addresses stored on Vatican site do not know about this?

FYROM is a country with a special politics and view on the past. Macedonia is the area where most of the VMRO (IMRO, eng.) were born. So, I am using FYROM when I speak about this strange political subject that denies the reality about Macedonia.

Regards,
Venelin

[***Sanya***]

Who told you that Maria (not Mary, as you say) is from Slav origin? Ever heard of Jesus and his mother?

:common053
Sorry for going off topic, but I have to comment this part.
Jesus's {peace be upon him} mother's name was neither Mary nor Maria/Marija; but her name was Mariam [also pronounced as Maryam] {peace be upon her}.:) It's a semitic name.

[Thorn]

Venelin, you are going too off-topic so I will stop here, and, about the name...why don't you use the name ***M when you go to the idividi forum, but you use Macedonia? Hmm...

[WisdomSeeker]

Venelin, you are going too off-topic so I will stop here, and, about the name...why don't you use the name ***M when you go to the idividi forum, but you use Macedonia? Hmm...

When in Rome,do as Romans do.

[Venstar]

:common053
Sorry for going off topic, but I have to comment this part.
Jesus's {peace be upon him} mother's name was neither Mary nor Maria/Marija; but her name was Mariam [also pronounced as Maryam] {peace be upon her}.:) It's a semitic name.

Sanya,
I think that discussing if the name Maria has slavic origin is not too far from the topic of the FYROMian language. Actually Thorn is trying to convince us that the mother of Cyril and Methodius was Macedonian and thus their work was the first codification of the Slavmacedonian language.

But we can go back to the very linguistic part of the discussion.

Thorn,
would you tell us how many dialects of your language are known? Give us some information on their location and specifics, please.

Regards,
Venelin

[WisdomSeeker]

Venstar,as you have requested yesterday,the family tree of the Saints comes from the book

''Refutation of the allegations about the Slavonic descent of Greek missionaries of Slavs, Kyrillos and Methodios"

written by professor Konstantinos Mponis,a most prominent greek theologist within Greece. He is a member of the Academy of Athens,has been a general director of the Ministry of Education and Religion in the past etc etc.

Maybe you can find more info about him in the google.
(Μπονης Κωνσταντινος).

[Kula]

When in Rome,do as Romans do.

I'm also curious why doesn't Thorn use Tatarstan when refering to Bulgaria here?

[WisdomSeeker]

I'm also curious why doesn't Thorn use Tatarstan when refering to Bulgaria here?


Nice Kula!! haha:D

its hardly funny actually,if you think about it,what kind of ideas they circulate in their forums...

[Kula]

Well there's plenty of nationalistic crap in many Bulgarian and probably Greek forums, but in this particular case Thorn should be the last one who critisizes Venstar about him using FYROM here. He (Thorn) himself has a very different opinion about most things, he's being quite moderate here.

[israel]

Is ridiculing a nationalist who goes to nationalistic forums and makes nationalistic posts a productive activity?

They are not hard to find, no matter what your political persuasion. And if you look for them, I assure you that you will never be disappointed.

[***Sanya***]

Sanya,
I think that discussing if the name Maria has slavic origin is not too far from the topic of the FYROMian language. Actually Thorn is trying to convince us that the mother of Cyril and Methodius was Macedonian and thus their work was the first codification of the Slavmacedonian language.


I think Greeks were the ones who changed all original names in the Bible so it's possible that name Maria has actually Greek origin, but I'm not sure since today it's international name.

:dunno:

[WisdomSeeker]

Well there's plenty of nationalistic crap in many Bulgarian and probably Greek forums, but in this particular case Thorn should be the last one who critisizes Venstar about him using FYROM here. He (Thorn) himself has a very different opinion about most things, he's being quite moderate here.


The difference Kula is that while,not the majority of Bulgarian or Greek forums online are like this,the slav macedonian ones have an incredibly large amount of crap.While not every greek or Bulgarian poster partecipating in those forums,i have yet to see ONE DECENT slav macedonian guy who is open to rationality and decent/level headed discussion. Most of them are like broken records.

Am i wrong perhaps? A little search on line on every main/big forums will make us understand many things.

EDIT: Maria is not a greek name,it is a hebrew one.

[***Sanya***]

Maria is not a greek name,it is a hebrew one.

Mariam is Hebrew and Arabic and Aramaic name, so we could say it's semitic.

Maria is European version of Mariam. But I don't know were the Greeks the first ones to use it.

[WisdomSeeker]

Sanya,it is not both Arab and hebrew. Arabs were appeared later in history than the jews you know.

Greeks were using the name even before Arabs have accepted islam. It is not greek either.

I am not sure if it were the Greeks who used it for the first time,though,even if it is a probability.

[***Sanya***]

Sanya,it is not both Arab and hebrew. Arabs were appeared later in history than the jews you know.

Greeks were using the name even before Arabs have accepted islam. It is not greek either.

I am not sure if it were the Greeks who used it for the first time,though,even if it is a probability.

How come Abraham's one wife was of Hebrew origin and other one was Arabic?

That's why still today, real Jew was/is considered the one from mother's side.
That's why Jews and Arabs are "cousins".

I wasn't talking about Islam, Arabs didn't appear there in 7th century you know.

[israel]

Miryam (מִרְיָם), Biblically, was the sister of Moses who hid him in order that he would not be killed (as a result of the Pharaoh's orders to kill all newborn Hebrew boys).

The name is Hebrew in origin. There is no argument that today it belongs to many differnet peoples and has undergone various changes.

[***Sanya***]

Miryam (מִרְיָם), Biblically, was the sister of Moses who hid him in order that he would not be killed (as a result of the Pharaoh's orders to kill all newborn Hebrew boys).

The name is Hebrew in origin. There is no argument that today it belongs to many differnet peoples and has undergone various changes.

Isn't it true that it derives from root MRYM? So it can be pronounced as Maryam/Miryam?

So what you think, is it wrong to say that it has semitic origins?

[tsunami]

Its more than certain that Hebrews and Arabs share the same language...so imo, i have to agree with Sanya.

If its hebrew, its semitic, therefore arab as well.

Unless there is significant documentation that provides a distinction between the 2 words as expressed by the 2 groups of people, which i highly doubt, that there is. I could be wrong though.

[israel]

The use of the name today, and the reason it perpetuated as it has done through history, is due to its appearance in the Hebrew bible.

So, of course it has semitic origins. It may have been used by other semitic tribes in history also. But the name today is essentially derived from the Hebrew name (in terms of its religiousness and secular general use).

[Balozi]

off topic

[Venstar]

P.S. Venstar, Vatican recognized Macedonia under its constitutional name, and so did Bulgaria...You use the term ***M because....?

Would you give some supportive documents that Vatican had recognised you under your constitutional name? I haven't found any. Also I haven't found any document in Macedonian language. Most of the addresses of the Popes to some Bulgarian audience are translated in English and Bulgarian. I have found no such thing for Macedonian.

Off-topic. As regards my presence in other forums. As anyone can easily see I give my real name with picture and contact details in all the forums I am registered. So, I stay behind my words. Unfortunately this is not valid for many of the other users. Closing the off-topic.


Regards,
Venelin