Greece, TOO religious a country.....

[KASTRIOTI]

While reading the article below:

http://www.icrf.com/wrpt/Europe/greece.htm

I could not help but think how religious Greece is (for me frighteningly very much so) and how much influence it has on the Greek government. Also reading Article 3 of the Greek constitution:

http://www.cecl.gr/rigasnetwork/databank/Constitutions/Greece.html

it makes you realise that religion really has got strong grips of this country. Furthermore, I found out that Greece is the only country in EU that forbids Proselytizing (To convert (a person) from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another). This prompted in my had that story about a Muslim believer in Iraq who all of a sudden had renounced Islam and was about to get his family jewels cut off by the Iraqi government (or was it in Afganistan? ... I cannot recall), after having been reported to the authorities by his own daughter.

So I want to discuss whether Greece is a bit TOO much religious, in that even the government can become a puppet to the Church influence?!




I could be wrong, that's why I want to have you guys comment a little bit on it

[Torontezos]

Well let's look at some background information here first.
Greece would never have existed if it wasn't for the Orthodox faith, this is a fact.
Orthodox priests used to run secret and illegal schools in the middle of the night to young Greek slaves during the Ottoman occupation, teaching them the history, language, traditions, and religion of the Greeks.
Therefore, I believe that it would be natural that the Greek Government has such strong ties to the official church.
Having said that though, there have been many ambitious politicians and clergy who use their positions for personal gain in the name of God and Country.
As for the prosyletizing law, it's a very old one and was created to stop aggressive conversions and to avoid any possibilities similar to the Spanish Inquisitions.
Realistically, nobody that I have ever heard of has been convicted of attempting to convert someone's faith under this law.
Keep in mind that the full text of article 13 you menationed of is:


(2) Every known religion is free and the forms of worship thereof shall be practiced without any hindrance by the State and under protection of the law. The exercise of worship shall not contravene public order or offend morals.Proselytizing is prohibited.

So it shows the freedom of religion, but the restriction is there to prohibit agressive preaching to convert people's faith (The same applies to Orthodoxy)

[KASTRIOTI]

Well let's look at some background information here first.
Greece would never have existed if it wasn't for the Orthodox faith, this is a fact.
Orthodox priests used to run secret and illegal schools in the middle of the night to young Greek slaves during the Ottoman occupation, teaching them the history, language, traditions, and religion of the Greeks.
Therefore, I believe that it would be natural that the Greek Government has such strong ties to the official church.
Having said that though, there have been many ambitious politicians and clergy who use their positions for personal gain in the name of God and Country.
As for the prosyletizing law, it's a very old one and was created to stop aggressive conversions and to avoid any possibilities similar to the Spanish Inquisitions.
Realistically, nobody that I have ever heard of has been convicted of attempting to convert someone's faith under this law.
Thanks for your point of view. I appreciate it.....:D

[Balozi]

i think that there is indeed a great influence but i wouldnt go so far as to compare greece with iraq or nigeria or other such states

the greek church i think has a lot of influence on the people and so the politicians dont dare go against it, or try to separate politics from religion

so, politics and religion are pretty much the same (only lately we can see some steps forward in separating these two, for example the mosque in athens).

i think this is the reason why greeks are so fond of serbs, the "orthodox brothers", and even russians

but as about the law in relation to proselytising, i think that it's a good law, i mean, i just hate those jehova's witnesses and people like that who have INFESTED albania and they lurk in the corners trying to "save your soul". all they do is try to create differences between the everyday people

i wish we had a law against proselytising too

[KASTRIOTI]

.....but as about the law in relation to proselytising, i think that it's a good law, i mean, i just hate those jehova's witnesses and people like that who have INFESTED albania and they lurk in the corners trying to "save your soul". all they do is try to create differences between the everyday people

i wish we had a law against proselytising too
I don't think so. I mean it's too harsh a law, and against religious freedom. So I guess, if I was a Christian and all of a sudden I renounce Christianity 'cus somebody convinced me to, should I go to jail?! That's nonsense!

But you're right about those Jehova's witnesses. Those guys are nuts man. they're convincing people to die 'cus its ok. I say, they ought to be accused of '.. accomplice to murder..' and thrown to jail. (sorry I got a bit off topic).

[Torontezos]

Like I mentioned, Proselytsing law was there to protect the public from religious fanaticism the likes of the Spanish Inquisitions since the exisiting church (Orthodox) is also not allowed to agressively persue conversion tactics.
Nobody has ever been convicted of "Abandoning the Orthodox Faith" and I don't think anyone ever will either.
The aim is to allow people to practice their faith in peace without having to deal with anyone trying to shove another religion down their throat (Like the Jehovas).
As for the relation to the Government, the Church is supposed to be the ethical and moral conscience of the government, to remind them of what is right and wrong in leading the country.
If you look back in history, one of the most revered Cypriot Prime Ministers (Makarios) was an Orthodox Arch-Bishop!

[Amin]

I agree about those Jehova's witnesses.They are annoying and they bother a lot people by going from door to door to preach.They are like some sort of cult which is brainwashing those people and they got some own meeting halls and houses.Have to admit that they are quite strange cult.They came many times to my door as well and they stopped me sometimes in the street to give some magazines.

[Balozi]

I don't think so. I mean it's too harsh a law, and against religious freedom.
what are you talking about, it has nothing to do with religious freedom. you are free to choose any religion you want. the aim of this law is primarily to prevent the action of people like jehova's witnesses that as i said are lurking in every corner trying to save your soul and that's very annoying. and in albania we have a lot of the likes of jehova's witnesses :badday:

make me president! i'll show them :P :victory:

anyway... yea. as for church in greece i remember some time ago the greek archbishop openly opposing the turkish entry into EU (and calling them "barbarians" as a matter of fact). it was clearly a politic statement and had nothing to do with religion whatsoever. or maybe it had. cause turks are muslim

[Torontezos]

Actually Balozi, the Arch-Bishop referenced the numerous human right violations in Turkey and the oppression of the Orthodox Patriarchate in Istanbul (formerly Constantinople), so technically it was a moral stance

[Balozi]

torontezos, i saw it in the news. he spoke about not letting the "barbarians" get into EU. if that sounds like a religious statement to you then i rest my case. what does the orthodox patriarchate have to do with EU anyway?

[Torontezos]

torontezos, i saw it in the news. he spoke about not letting the "barbarians" get into EU. if that sounds like a religious statement to you then i rest my case. what does the orthodox patriarchate have to do with EU anyway?

http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=5503

As you can see in the article his sermon did have a religious part to it. Instead everyone focuses on the word "barbarian"

[Torontezos]

torontezos, i saw it in the news. he spoke about not letting the "barbarians" get into EU. if that sounds like a religious statement to you then i rest my case. what does the orthodox patriarchate have to do with EU anyway?

Nothing, which is why I'm trying to tell you his message was not strictly political, but about the faith as well.

All he asked for was for the Turkish government to admit to documented religious desecrations to Orthodox churches and monastaries in Asia Minor.

[KASTRIOTI]

Nothing, which is why I'm trying to tell you his message was not strictly political, but about the faith as well.

All he asked for was for the Turkish government to admit to documented religious desecrations to Orthodox churches and monastaries in Asia Minor.
But is it true that there have been religious desecrations to Orthodox churches and monastaries in Asia Minor?!

I mean the Greek Helsinki Committee keeps banging on about the Greek minority being killed, and churches being burnt down in southern Albania when indeed nothing of this sort is happening!!!

[Balozi]

are you sure? never heared such a thing from that helsinki thing. anyway, yea, if they said that... sounds like a joke actually

but i thought them to be sort of serious and objective :?

[KASTRIOTI]

are you sure? never heared such a thing from that helsinki thing. anyway, yea, if they said that... sounds like a joke actually

but i thought them to be sort of serious and objective :?
Actually, it was more like a Greek-American Committee asked the US State Department to critisize Albanian governmet for the maltreatement of Greek minority in the South and burning and looting of Greek orthodox Chruches. The Greek Helsinki Committee backed this claim up, but then plaid it down only 1 month later.

Trying to find the full text.......

[KASTRIOTI]

Ok, here we go. The organisation that made such proposturous statements on May 20, 2005 it's called: The American Hellenic Institute.

Here's the full text: http://www.ahiworld.org/press_releases/052005.html

And to think that the body of the text about burning churces and intimidation is the same with a press release in 2004. They keep repearting the same BS over and over again!

The Greek Helsinki Committee actually backed up only the part about: "......Albania must treat its minorities fairly and humanely the way it wants Albanian minorities in neighboring countries to be treated......", 1 month after the release, and then dicarded the rest of the statement as purely biased.

Coming to think of it, the Greek Helsinki Committee is actually the only objective Greek orgnisation! :D

[Balozi]

yes i like them too :P
anyway

i moved the off topic discussion about greek helsinki monitor here (http://www.balkanforums.com/showthread.php?t=1128)

lets be on topic :P

[airwings]

yes i like them too :P
anyway

i moved the off topic discussion about greek helsinki monitor here (http://www.balkanforums.com/showthread.php?t=1128)

lets be on topic :P
The Greek Helsinki Monitor is a organization that has as members famous Skopjans (Dimitras) and gays(Vallianatos).
So please respect as moderator the Greek Archibishop and don't bring argyments from a side that support the non-religion matters.

[Torontezos]

But is it true that there have been religious desecrations to Orthodox churches and monastaries in Asia Minor?!

I mean the Greek Helsinki Committee keeps banging on about the Greek minority being killed, and churches being burnt down in southern Albania when indeed nothing of this sort is happening!!!

I'm not talking about Albania, don't divert the topic! >:(

Here is jus some of the documentation about desecrations of Orthodox churches, cemeteries & monastaries in Asia Minor.
Read it before you start saying "Oh it's a Greek biased site" You'll see the first one is official government documentation, and the second one sources neutral news organizations.

http://www.greekembassy.org/embassy/content/en/Article.aspx?office=3&folder=263&article=2136

http://www.greeknewsonline.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3755

[Balozi]

guys lets not move the discussion to outside greece please? we're talking about what happens in greece

[Torontezos]

I'm trying to give reasons for the bitterness expressed by Arch-Bishop Christodoulos in Greece, so technically I'm still on topic ;)