proposition to settle the kosovo issue once and for good

[Balozi]

how about if serbs get their serbian part of kosovo (kosovska mitrovica), and give to kosovo preshevo valley. also they could have a small population exchange (there won't really be many people though)

what do you guys think?

[Makeveli]

Sounds very good Balozi, that would by a goos salution i think.

[Tiberius_Balcanicus]

Good idea, but the Politicians wont change border lines, because they are too... (khm)O.o ... narrow-minded. They stick to this unreasonable law from 1945, that "NO BORDER CHANGES". This is the main cause of the conflicts, especially in Africa, Caucasus and the Balkans.
And evil laughs on them >=) (and of course good for the weapon-industry)

I hope they will realise soon, that this is "archaic" view and unsustainable... :angry019:

[albgene]

how about if serbs get their serbian part of kosovo (kosovska mitrovica), and give to kosovo preshevo valley. also they could have a small population exchange (there won't really be many people though)

what do you guys think?

How many times should we go over this???. The current demographic of Serbs in Northern Mitrovica aka Srpska Mitrovica came about in 1999. Northern Mitrovica , prior to the war was predominately Albanian.

When Independence is granted Albanians will move back to mitrovica, to their homes basically.

So a big NO to your proposition Mr Moderator. Albanians in Preshevo valley are a separate issue. Kosovo's integrity is crucial and shall be respected.

[Balozi]

first of all im not sure of that but anyway lets not want everything. in such a scenario, would you be unhappy?

[albgene]

first of all im not sure of that but anyway lets not want everything. in such a scenario, would you be unhappy?

Kosovo is small as it is, chopping off Srpska mitrovica which by the way is also rich in minerals it's sth I don't quiet understand the rational behind it.

Plus the international community itself which historically plays the moderator and the voice of compromise has ruled out partition.

[Balozi]

that's not what i asked you. would you be happy with it or not

[albgene]

that's not what i asked you. would you be happy with it or not

NO, because:

1)Prior to 1999 Northern Mitrovica had a predominately Albanian majority, the current situation is a product of injustice and ethnic cleansing.

2) It does not make any economic or political sense.

[nivbri]

I think that would be terrific and I would support it. What good in the Presevo valley to Serbia. It is somthing that has to be supported. Give to the Albanians let them financially support it.

[KASTRIOTI]

I couldn't disagree more with you Balozi. Give Northern Mitrovica to the Serbs?! Why?! Because they concentrated there during the war and after it? In that case we Albanians should overpopulate the whole of Montenegro, the whole of Western FYROM and claim them why don't we?!

My answer is NO! I would not support such a solution. It is exactly what Serbs want to hear. Kosova's division should not be an option. It will be wrong to partition it.

[ALB]

Thats unacceptble. Mitrovica cant be seperated. How on earth you would convince albanians that have properties in the other side that this is the best solution.

Mitrovica should be included in Kosova borders.

[nivbri]

I think it's clear that unless all the Serbs leave Kosovo the Albanaians are never getting those properties back. There also never going to be back in Northern Mitrovica. Like all the Serb property lost in March 2004. Their gone, forget about them.

[ironman12345]

you people disgust me. The Albanians move into a country and look to separate from it and liitle by little they take the country over. You people obviously don't see that it is a very evil thing to do. They don't deserve to have any part of Kosovo. The Serbs had to get them out of Kosovo so that they wouldn't take it over. It is also happening in Macedonia. Seriously the Albanians should stop trying to conquer the Balkans

[Amin]

Ironman you started little harsh.Slow down a bit man.Relax.

We don't like provocative posts in this forum.

Read forum rules (http://www.balkanium.com/showpost.php?p=5642&postcount=1) first.

[ironman12345]

sorry man i just got kinda pissed off when I read the BS that they posted. I'll try to not let it happen again.

[Balozi]

amin, isn't that just how everyone starts? :roll: :P

[Amin]

amin, isn't that just how everyone starts? :roll: :P


Don't remind me.:D

[WisdomSeeker]

+1 @ Balozi...


I have said that long ago ,and we will see it again with every new member :D

[Amin]

sorry man i just got kinda pissed off when I read the BS that they posted. I'll try to not let it happen again.

It's alright. We have freedom of speech here. But we're more for healthy discussions in politics than to tell each others to f*** off.;)

You can properly introduce yourself here! (http://www.balkanium.com/showthread.php?t=1329)

And welcome to the forum.:)

[hungarian_joker]

amin, isn't that just how everyone starts? :roll: :P

No. I didn't start that way.

[KASTRIOTI]

you people disgust me. The Albanians move into a country and look to separate from it and liitle by little they take the country over. You people obviously don't see that it is a very evil thing to do. They don't deserve to have any part of Kosovo. The Serbs had to get them out of Kosovo so that they wouldn't take it over. It is also happening in Macedonia. Seriously the Albanians should stop trying to conquer the Balkans
:D :D I really like to meet this guy. Maybe we can have a chat in my "office"!!!!! >:(

[WisdomSeeker]

No. I didn't start that way.

You are right. Ok, with NEARLY every new member then:D

[TurkishDelight]

I don't think I have done that or at least I hope I have not done that (insulting anybody with my strong language).

[ALB]

you people disgust me. The Albanians move into a country and look to separate from it and liitle by little they take the country over. You people obviously don't see that it is a very evil thing to do. They don't deserve to have any part of Kosovo. The Serbs had to get them out of Kosovo so that they wouldn't take it over. It is also happening in Macedonia. Seriously the Albanians should stop trying to conquer the Balkans



Two words for you, either you are an anti-albanian, which is not good, that makes you a racist OR you escaped often from history classes which makes you not qualified to take part in this disccusion.

:whistling

[Balozi]

guys i was generally speaking dont take it personally :P

and yes hungarian joker and turkish delight you were good boys O:-) :P

[Dardani]

i dont think i started that way either :D

[Balozi]

ok but let's stay on topic now please

[Vojvodina]

NO, because:

1)Prior to 1999 Northern Mitrovica had a predominately Albanian majority, the current situation is a product of injustice and ethnic cleansing.

2) It does not make any economic or political sense.

Ummm you realise that something like that 20% of the Serbian population was forced to flee from Albanians in Kosovo. But I guess that doesn't count because they are Serbs. Why do they belong in Kosovo? It's not like they live there or anything....:angry019:

I think all the former Yugoslav leaders should accept that everyone tried to ethnically cleanse each other. Once they do this, they should redraw the borders on ethnic lines (it's sad but needs to be done). Only then will there be peace.

So therefore it is a matter of necessity that Mitrovica should go to Serbia, the rest to Albania. Republika Srpska would follow as well.

Incidentally, I realise that parts of this idea are part of the Serb nationalist "veliki srbija" idea...but there are other injustices as well. Dubrovnik should be independent. You just need to look at the Bosnian-Croatian border to know there is something wrong there!

[RoboCop]

Dubrovnik should not be independet cuz they don't want to be independent and don't have the reason to be.

[Vojvodina]

Dubrovnik should not be independet cuz they don't want to be independent and don't have the reason to be.

Dubrovnik was actually an independent state (kind of like Monaco).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubrovnik


Between the 14th century and 1808 Dubrovnik ruled itself as a free state named Respublica Ragusina, the Republic of Ragusa also known as the Republic of Dubrovnik. The Republic of Ragusa reached its peak in the 15th and 16th centuries, when the Dubrovnik thalassocracy rivalled the Republic of Venice and other Italian maritime republics. During this time in Dubrovnik worked one of the most famous cannon and bell founder of this time: Ivan Rabljanin ( Magister Johannes Baptista Arbensis de la Tolle).

[Balozi]

off topic!

[Vojvodina]

Sorry there, just thought Robocop ought to know about Dubrovnik's history...

[RoboCop]

Do you really think that I didn't know that. Man, Vojvodina your discovery equals Columbo's discovery of America.

If you want to debate about if it should be independent make another thread. Same goes for that thing that Bosnia should have bigger coastline.

Sorry, Balozi.

[Dardani]

every region or place was independent at one time or another. shkoder for example tried to be an independent state in the early formation of the albanian republic. it goes back all the way to city-state mentality.

[Balozi]

everyone stop being off topic

[Vojvodina]

Fine let's get back on topic.

I think that any efforts to remove Kosovo from Serbia should be counter government and ispo facto an act of treason.

The only punishment for treason is death.

Serbia has been robbed over the last few wars. Why do you Albanians think we are going to be happy to let Kosovo go? Because you will terrorise us more if we don't? I guess we should all surrender to the demands of these rebel insurgents (and KLA terrorists).

[Balozi]

treason from whom. im not aware of any serb trying to give kosovo to albanians :P

btw u are off topic again. in the beginning i made a proposal. that's the topic

[Torontezos]

Actually if you want to get technical, treason can be defined as citizens of a nation who work towards it's split/betrayal.

So, if the people in Kosovo are registered citizens of Serbia, they are technically comitting treason when they support the split or destruction of the state.

Just me being the devil's advocate LOL

However, I believe Kosovo is a much more complicated issue than simple treason.

Balozi: Your proposal makes sense from an outsider's view, but I admit I do not know enough about the issue at hand to support or condemn your proposal.

[Balozi]

yes technically and theoretically many things are possible but the fact is that they are not citizens of serbia because they chose too, but because they found themselves into this state. there is no treason in that

it's not like they went in serbia and asked to be citizens of serbia and then they decided to split. one day they woke up and they were in the borders of serbia, so they had no choice

[Vojvodina]

What the hell are you on about?

Kosovo has been DEFINITELY part of Serbia since 1913.

Maybe the Albanians need some stronger coffee...

[albgene]

Borders have changed continuously in Europe. If we focus on history any country in Europe would be in a state of war today with its neighbors, Hungary can claim vojvodina, Poland can claim a big chunk of northern Germany, Greece western turkey and we Albanians all western Balkans from Slovenia to Janina.

So dear Serbs, your story is nothing out of the "ordinary", borders change.

We, Albanians are not the most powerful nation in the world, far from it. Thus if the international community sees fit to accept Kosovo as an independent state would be strictly because that what needs to be done.

[Vojvodina]

I respect to an extent what you say. It is the first rational argument I have seen in a while, but I find you too willing to accept foreign influence. The West may be more advanced than anyone in the Balkans, that much is true, but they tend to have terrible foreign policies. We should not just allow them to deal with our countries as they so which.

If they wanted to carve Albania in half, and give half to Greece, would you really be alright that? I know you wouldn't. We must really somehow shake off Western Interference. Only by ourselves can we sort out our own problems.

[Balozi]

it was western interfearence who gave you kosovo 100 years ago. why didn't you protest back then? it was western interfearence that made albania 50% of what it should've been. but now they are doing something right. we aren't going to say no

[albgene]

it was western interfearence who gave you kosovo 100 years ago. why didn't you protest back then? it was western interfearence that made albania 50% of what it should've been. but now they are doing something right. we aren't going to say no

Precisely.

I do believe that the independece of Kosovo is step forward towards the natural borders and regional peace.

Even if Kosovo would be part of Serbia, it would still be Albanian. Albanians there aren't going anywhere. The only way to get rid of them is through military force and we know what that brought upon Serbia.

Interantional community, is not pressured by Albania or Albanians. We're not in a position to pressure them, that should tell anyone that their actions are purely done either in the name of justice or the overall good ( peace, stability).

[Vojvodina]

it was western interfearence who gave you kosovo 100 years ago. why didn't you protest back then? it was western interfearence that made albania 50% of what it should've been. but now they are doing something right. we aren't going to say no

I wasn't born 100 years ago :D

Also I would like to point out that Albanians obviously feel the same way as Serbs. You think Albania is "50%" smaller. I think Serbia is "50%" smaller. We used to have Macedonia, Parts of Bulgaria, Parts of Krajina, and most of Republika Srpska. But I get called a Serb national for thinking this. So doesn't this make you an Albanian national? Probably not since most Albanians on this forum will support you, as any pro-Serb point is propaganda.

[Balozi]

the problem is that you are the same race with other slavs but we albanians are on our own. it's clear what is albanian and what is not

[nivbri]

Precisely.

I do believe that the independece of Kosovo is step forward towards the natural borders and regional peace.

Even if Kosovo would be part of Serbia, it would still be Albanian. Albanians there aren't going anywhere. The only way to get rid of them is through military force and we know what that brought upon Serbia.

Interantional community, is not pressured by Albania or Albanians. We're not in a position to pressure them, that should tell anyone that their actions are purely done either in the name of justice or the overall good ( peace, stability).


An independent Kosovo would do nothing for Peace as KLA Ceku is its prime minister and there is violence against Serbs every single day.

[RoboCop]

But I get called a Serb national for thinking this. So doesn't this make you an Albanian national? Probably not since most Albanians on this forum will support you, as any pro-Serb point is propaganda.

This is pretty much true!!!:clap:

[albgene]

I wasn't born 100 years ago :D

Also I would like to point out that Albanians obviously feel the same way as Serbs. You think Albania is "50%" smaller. I think Serbia is "50%" smaller. We used to have Macedonia, Parts of Bulgaria, Parts of Krajina, and most of Republika Srpska. But I get called a Serb national for thinking this. So doesn't this make you an Albanian national? Probably not since most Albanians on this forum will support you, as any pro-Serb point is propaganda.

It's not as simple as you're trying to make it. Even the biggest Albanian nationalist will not think of incorporating territories which although Albanian once, are not populated by Albanians at the present time. Cameria was a considerable chunk of land that was given to Greece in 1878 and again in 1913. Greeks were successful in cleansing the area. Nowadays there are virtually no Albanians in that land. There's no point in fighting for that land as that would be a declaration of war against Greece. The war for independence should come from within the country,(in the modern era) from the citizens of that country that is. It would be unimaginable for Albania to declare war to Serbia over Kosovo, but Albanians of Kosovo, an integral part of Serbia can certainly make their voices heard and heard they did.

Concluding, bigger Albania is just the territories which have historically belonged to Albania and are still nowadays populated by ethnic Albanians. These prerequisites should both be present in order for any hope for independence.

[Vojvodina]

It's not as simple as you're trying to make it. Even the biggest Albanian nationalist will not think of incorporating territories which although Albanian once, are not populated by Albanians at the present time. Cameria was a considerable chunk of land that was given to Greece in 1878 and again in 1913. Greeks were successful in cleansing the area. Nowadays there are virtually no Albanians in that land. There's no point in fighting for that land as that would be a declaration of war against Greece. The war for independence should come from within the country,(in the modern era) from the citizens of that country that is. It would be unimaginable for Albania to declare war to Serbia over Kosovo, but Albanians of Kosovo, an integral part of Serbia can certainly make their voices heard and heard they did.

Concluding, bigger Albania is just the territories which have historically belonged to Albania and are still nowadays populated by ethnic Albanians. These prerequisites should both be present in order for any hope for independence.

I am impressed with the arguments you put forward. They make sense and have a point for a change.

But I am simply trying to simplify the issue, you are correct. Because the Balkan curse is over complicating matters. We must look at things simply in order to to understand things more clearly.

Now you mentioned that there are "old lands" belonging to Albania. Indeed, Macedonia and parts of Kosovo etc were Albanian in history. That said, all of Albania, most of Greece, and Bulgaria, were all part of Serbia (not for long) at one point.

We need to really weigh it out by ethnic majorities (so perhaps we must begin to accept the loss of Kosovo). It is the only "fair" way to create peace in the Balkans.

Congrats to you Albgene, you may have convinced a Serb that Kosovo will be lost. But by your logic, then you must agree that the Serbs deserve Republika Srspka, and perhaps also Krajina.

Also to robocop, I think it is important to note the strong anti-Serb bias that is harboured in this forum.

[WisdomSeeker]

Only a small notice on your post mate:


Also to robocop, I think it is important to note the strong anti-Serb bias that is harboured in this forum.


Not true. The bias is not headed towards ethnicities,but rather towards extremist views,regardless of whom they come from.

I condemn and always will posts which promote hatred may those come from Greeks,serbs,albanians etc. And let me assure you that not only albanians and serbs navigate in this forum and they can always judge positive/negative behaviours as well.

[Vojvodina]

I condemn and always will posts which promote hatred may those come from Greeks,serbs,albanians etc. And let me assure you that not only albanians and serbs navigate in this forum and they can always judge positive/negative behaviours as well.

While this is admirable, I must point out that anything that suggests the enlargement of Serbia is said to be "velicki Serbian chetnik expansionsism" on this forum. However, when debating about Kosovo, why aren't ALL the pro-independence people referred to as Nationalists? They are, after all, trying to expand Albania (ultimately) and engulf foreign lands.

I am simply pointing out an implicit bias that I have noticed.

[WisdomSeeker]

While this is admirable, I must point out that anything that suggests the enlargement of Serbia is said to be "velicki Serbian chetnik expansionsism" on this forum. However, when debating about Kosovo, why aren't ALL the pro-independence people referred to as Nationalists? They are, after all, trying to expand Albania (ultimately) and engulf foreign lands.

I am simply pointing out an implicit bias that I have noticed.
Should you have read older posts,you would have seen that non albanian members are against Albania claiming to annex Kossovo,and i remember posting the possible complications and consuegences an act like that would bring upon Albania. Feel free to search for them.

Furthermore,i have many times entered into ''heated discussions'' to put it mildly with Albanians over claiming '' Big Albania'',the other members can conferm you that.

But the main point is that you should not feel that there is a bias towards Serbian patriots. It is not the ethnicity we point the finger to,it is certain behaviours and views.Same goes to Albanian members here,when i feel they are crossing the lines i always feel that i should criticize them,i dont see any difference.

After all,what would be of this forum if we all agreed on anything? We all know there are issues among us and its normal we have different opinions and views,its ok withme, as long as everyone complies with the forum's rules.We live in Balkan after all,we all are stubborn and hotheaded people on times:D

[Vojvodina]

After all,what would be of this forum if we all agreed on anything? We all know there are issues among us and its normal we have different opinions and views,its ok withme, as long as everyone complies with the forum's rules.We live in Balkan after all,we all are stubborn and hotheaded people on times:D

It is too true! :D Sadly this is why we end up at war all the time. Because we are stubborn and refuse to back down.

I wonder, have nationalists been banned from this forum? There are some previous members who seem to have quit/been banned on accounts of bias. This is what brought it to my attention.

Anyway, I would like to observe the following ways of solving the Kosovo question:

1) Throw out all the Serbs
2) Throw out all the Albanians
3) Send forth the best Serb and best Albanian fighter and have them decided the fate
4) We (Serbs and Albanians) have a big game of musical chairs and whoever loses leaves
5) We can go back to war
6) We can work together to make life for the UN hell
7) We can split Kosovo in half (half remains Serbian)

:trampolin Hope that helps!! :D