Downward the olymp....

[LOU WEED]

....there is a land of stone and water........GREECE!!!
the natural border the olymp, between greece and macedonia......the only and true border between greece and macedonia????!
the origin borders of 1830 (reign of habsburg), also the ethnically border (however a greek minority existed in macedonia, also like other minoritys)....shown on many historical maps and sources........so lets start disscusioning!!

[WisdomSeeker]

....there is a land of stone and water........GREECE!!!
the natural border the olymp, between greece and macedonia......the only and true border between greece and macedonia????!
the origin borders of 1830 (reign of habsburg), also the ethnically border (however a greek minority existed in macedonia, also like other minoritys)....shown on many historical maps and sources........so lets start disscusioning!!

before i can ''discuss'' with you,my misled friend,i wonder how is it possible NOT to know your ''nation's border '' name with greece.

The mountain is called OLYMPUS,the mountain of the gods,not olymp!

if you want to post a brainfart,at least post it correctly:common051

[LOU WEED]

before i can ''discuss'' with you,my misled friend,i wonder how is it possible NOT to know your ''nation's border '' name with greece.

The mountain is called OLYMPUS,the mountain of the gods,not olymp!

if you want to post a brainfart,at least post it correctly:common051


its called olympus thats right, but usally its spoken olymp

[WisdomSeeker]

its called olympus thats right, but usally its spoken olymp

by whom? slav macedonians?

Greeks use the same name for this mountain for over 2000 years,that is:


''Olympos''.

now,back to the subject. NAME ONE map that describes an ethnic border between macedonia and thessaly during antiquity.


try hard,because it will be a difficult task to do.

[LOU WEED]

by whom? slav macedonians?

Greeks use the same name for this mountain for over 2000 years,that is:


''Olympos''.

now,back to the subject. NAME ONE map that describes an ethnic border between macedonia and thessaly during antiquity.


try hard,because it will be a difficult task to do.


you are kidding???
there is no map, not even one who shows a greek ethnicity in this time.....am i right???

[WisdomSeeker]

you are kidding???
there is no map, not even one who shows a greek ethnicity in this time.....am i right???

LOU,i will say it only once,because it seems you are incapable of comprehend what i post:

Athenians were greeks? Spartans were Greeks? the kingdom of Achilleus was Greek?Argos was a greek city or not?
(im leaving out the macedonian cities,just to avoid other debates over here)


Just answer me..you are living in Germany as you have said:

WAS THE PRUSSIAN KINGDOM GERMAN?
WAS THE BAVARIAN KINGDOM GERMAN?
IS THERE A SWISS NATION?
What kind of nation are the Austrian? Do they compose a nation?


If you answer the questions above,then you will know your answer to the question you have asked.So according to you ancient greeks never existed,is that you are saying?:doh:

PS: Sorry for the caps,but he is thickheaded,and likes to reproduce what he has been told to without thinking.

[LOU WEED]

i understand u.....but maybe when u r u reading YOUR post again, maybe u understand me, what i tried to tell in many posts before..........;)

[WisdomSeeker]

understand what? just state your position clearly and i will comment on it.

if you say that ancient greeks were not feeling greeks,but athenian,spartan or whatever,then you are wrong.
because we have many historical facts that prove otherwise (like the persian wars),many scripts and documents,when they state THEMSELVES that they were greeks.

is it clearly understood now?

[Philip]

understand what? just state your position clearly and i will comment on it.

if you say that ancient greeks were not feeling greeks,but athenian,spartan or whatever,then you are wrong.
because we have many historical facts that prove otherwise (like the persian wars),many scripts and documents,when they state THEMSELVES that they were greeks.

is it clearly understood now?

The Greeks had stronger local/tribal identities than ethnic. However, they refered to themselves as Hellenes (like they do today). Originally they considered Hellenes whoever spoke the same language and shared common bloodline (according to their mythology). After the classical years Hellenes were considered those who spoke the same primary/native language and shared the same culture (Hellenism, see Isocrates).

The best example of a tribe not considered Hellenic from the beginning where the Kares of Asia Minor. They were probably a Tyrhenian tribe allied to Troy during the war. After the 6th century BC they were accepted as Hellenes. They joined the Ionian resistance in Asia Minor against the Persians.

[Alalzia]

Asia minor was hellinized like jews of epiros or thracians did , i dont remember who said it but hellines are considered all those who are part of "tis imeteras imon paidias" ( of our education) - feel free to correct me my ancient greek are very limited.No bloodline , it is a purely cultural thing.

[WisdomSeeker]

Asia minor was hellinized like jews of epiros or thracians did , i dont remember who said it but hellines are considered all those who are part of "tis imeteras imon paidias" ( of our education) - feel free to correct me my ancient greek are very limited.No bloodline , it is a purely cultural thing.

correct,EXCEPT from the greek cities located there,as Miletos,Ephesus,Alikarnassos etc.
Their citizens were not ''hellenised'',but greeks proper.

[Alalzia]

I dont see how a hellin and a hellinized is a different thing.

[Isokrates]

After the classical years Hellenes were considered those who spoke the same primary/native language and shared the same culture (Hellenism, see Isocrates).

This is the distorted view of Isokrates' text that has been promoted lately He's doing nothing more than boasting about the Athenean culture and preparing them for war against the Persians.
If we look at the text we see :



50) And so far has our city distanced the rest of mankind in thought and in speech that her pupils have become the teachers of the rest of the world; and she has brought it about that the name Hellenes suggests no longer a race but an intelligence, and that the title Hellenes is applied rather to those who share our culture than to those who share a common blood

So we see that the name/term Hellines depicts suggests intelligence due to the Athenean accomplishemnts in art,philosophy..etc
The again, while this is the common translation, we know that its partially incorrect because the sentence in question is :


καὶ μᾶλλον Ἕλληνας καλεῖσθαι τοὺς τῆς παιδεύσεως τῆς ἡμετέρας ἢ τοὺς τῆς κοινῆς φύσεως μετέχοντας.

we all know very well that 'H' (hetta) means or so the very suggestion that education over race is suggested is wrong. Isokrates' Panegurikos, is actually the most nationalistic speech we have in the entire anthology.
Throughout it, he speaks of noble and pure race, subjugating the barbarians, cursing those that suggest to send a peace embassy...etc its simply irrational to believe that he'd first make reference to these and then suggest that any foreigner could be considered a Hellene.
The meaning of the phrase beside the obvious here, is also noted in his previous speech "Περὶ ἀντιδόσεως"
where he states:



[295] For you must not lose sight of the fact that Athens is looked upon as having become a school for the education of all able orators and teachers of oratory. And naturally so; for people observe that she holds forth the greatest prizes for those who have this ability, that she offers the greatest number and variety of fields of exercise to those who have chosen to enter contests of this character and want to train for them,
[296] and that, furthermore, everyone obtains here that practical experience which more than any other thing imparts ability to speak; and, in addition to these advantages, they consider that the catholicity and moderation of our speech, as well as our flexibility of mind and love of letters, contribute in no small degree to the education of the orator. Therefore they suppose, and not without just reason, that all clever speakers are the disciples of Athens.
[297] Beware, then, lest it make you utterly ridiculous to pronounce a disparaging judgement upon the reputation which you have among the Hellenes even more than I have among you. Manifestly, by such an unjust verdict, you would be passing sentence upon yourselves.

[298] It would be as if the Lacedaemonians were to attempt to penalize men for training themselves in preparation for war, or as if the Thessalians saw fit to punish men for practicing the art of horsemanship. Take care, therefore, not to do yourselves this wrong and not to lend support to the slanders of the enemies of Athens rather than to the eulogies of her friends.



The best example of a tribe not considered Hellenic from the beginning where the Kares of Asia Minor. They were probably a Tyrhenian tribe allied to Troy during the war. After the 6th century BC they were accepted as Hellenes. They joined the Ionian resistance in Asia Minor against the Persians.

Then again, we know that a major part of Caria was populated by Hellenic collonists. While intermixing must have taken place as Herodotus tells us (1.146) still the majority on the coasts and the major cities (Halikarnassos, Hraklea..etc) were composed of Hellenes.