Historical revisionism(Negationism).

[tsunami]

"Historical revisionism (also but less often in English "negationism"[1]), as used in this article, describes the process that attempts to rewrite history by minimizing, denying or simply ignoring essential facts. Perpetrators of such attempts to distort the historical record often use the term because it allows them to cloak their illegitimate activities with a phrase which has a legitimate meaning.
In some countries historical revisionism (negationism) of certain historical events is a criminal offence. Examples of historical revisionism (negationism) include Holocaust denial and Soviet history. Negationism relies on a number of techniques such as logical fallacies and appeal to fear. Negationism can be found in literature, for example Nineteen Eighty-Four by George Orwell and is used by hate groups on the Internet.


Politically motivated historical revisionism

Historical revisionism can be used as a label to describe the views of self-taught historians who publish articles that deliberately misrepresent and manipulate historical evidence. This usage has occurred because some authors who publish articles that deliberately misrepresent and manipulate historical evidence (such as David Irving, a proponent of Holocaust denial), have called themselves "historical revisionists"[2]. This label has been used by others pejoratively to describe them when criticising their work. For example, some people have published popular histories that challenge the generally accepted view of a given period, such as the Holocaust. They do this by downplaying its scale and whitewashing other Nazi war crimes while emphasising the suffering of the Axis populations at the hands of the Allies and stating or implying that the Allies committed war crimes as well.


Techniques used by politically motivated revisionists:

Conspiracy theories
The selective use of facts
The denial or derision of known facts
Argument from ignorance (hence the historian community's emphasis on the importance of historical memory and historical studies)
The assumption of unproven facts
The fabrication of facts
The obfuscation of facts
Claims of "counter-genocide", leading to a confusion between victims and executioners (for example, the Bombing of Dresden in World War II has been said by Holocaust deniers to be a "counter-genocide", thus transforming the German people into victims and henceforth exempting them from any kind of moral responsibility; the term has also been used concerning the Rwandan genocide and the Armenian Genocide)
Fallacy of equivocation
Appeal to consequences
Irrelevant conclusions
Burden of proof (due to the complex nature of what can be considered a historical "proof" - which differs from a logical proof - revisionists sometime ask historians to further prove an event which has been reasonably proved by historic standards, hence accepted as a fact by the historian community)
Appeal to fear
Appeal to spite
Association fallacy
Hasty generalization
The use of attractive or neutral euphemisms to disguise unpleasant facts concerning their own positions
The use of unpleasant euphemisms to describe opposing facts
The two wrongs make a right fallacy
Wishful thinking
Constant attack against those disputing their views (Ad hominem) (close to slander and libel)
Meaningless statements
Reversal of blame (example: accusing Jews of provoking the Holocaust, or Armenians the genocide of 1915)"

[tsunami]

"Japanese war crimes


Historical attempts by Japan at downgrading the various war crimes committed by Japanese imperialism are seen by some as examples of revisionist history [28]. The successive visits of former Prime minister Junichiro Koizumi to the Yasukuni Shrine, where war criminals are buried, have been resented by other Asian countries. The shrine has been criticised by people such as Tsuneo Watanabe (editor in chief of Yomiuri Shimbun) as a bastion of revisionism: "The Yasukuni Shrine runs a museum where they show items in order to encourage and worship militarism. It's wrong for the prime minister to visit such a place".[29]
Furthermore, the history textbook controversy centres on how a junior-high history textbook called the "Atarashii Rekishi Kyokasho" or "New History Textbook" allegedly downplays or "whitewashes" the nature of Japan's military aggression in the First Sino-Japanese War, in Japan's annexation of Korea in 1910, and in World War II. The textbook was created by the Japanese Society for History Textbook Reform, a conservative Japanese organization, which, as its name implies, aims to reform the traditional and international view Japanese history in that period. It places less emphasis on the nature of wartime atrocities and de-emphasizes the subject of the Chinese and Korean comfort women, which some feel is at least partly inappropriate at the junior high level.
Japan's official policy is that publishers have the right to freedom of speech, however, the central government does have the right to stop it from being published.
Hibakushas and various historians have often criticized the attempts of downgrading the importance of the Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which they sometimes called "nuclear holocaust", as an example of revisionist history. [30][31]


Soviet and Russian history.


Nikolai Yezhov, the young man strolling with Stalin to his left, was executed in 1940.


Communist Party censors edited the photo, removing Nikolai from (but ironically placing him into) history.
During the rule of dictator Joseph Stalin in the Soviet Union, a variety of revisionist tactics were employed to ignore unpleasant events of the past. Soviet school books would constantly be revised to remove photographs and articles that dealt with politicians who had fallen out of favor with the regime. History was frequently re-written, with past events modified so they always portrayed Stalin's government favourably.
[edit]Russian textbooks on the 20th Century
The textbook History of Russia and the World in the 20th Century, written by Nikita Zagladin, in 2004 replaced Igor Dolutsky's National History: 20th Century. Zagladin's text was implemented under the guidance and encouragement of Vladimir Putin who wanted a textbook that was more "patriotic". Critics of the new book cite a lack of detail in addressing historical events such as the Siege of Leningrad, Gulag labor camps, Soviet attack on Finland and the First and Second Chechen Wars as serious factual innaccuracies. The Holocaust is not mentioned and the rule of Joseph Stalin is glorified.[32]
[edit]The revisionist school of communist studies
According to John Earl Haynes and Harvey Klehr, writing in their book In Denial: Historians, Communism & Espionage, many academic studies in the field of Soviet and Communist studies, especially in the area of History of the Soviet Union and regarding the history of the Communist Party USA by the so-called "Revisionist School" have generally taken a benign view of the Party while minimizing Soviet atrocities and the totalitarian nature of the movement[33]. Haynes and Klehr attribute the alleged biased stance of these historians, many of whom entered academia during the Vietnam War era, to anti-American and anti-capitalist sentiments[34].



Macedonism.


The political idea prevalent in the Republic of Macedonia advocates revising history in order to project an ethnic group that formed in the 20th century - ethnic Macedonians - in the context of the 19th century and even in the middle ages. For example, Bulgarian Tsar Samuil is denied the Bulgarian nature of his kingdom, despite overwhelming evidence supporting it, and is defined as a "Slavic" or "Macedonian" king. Further attempts are made to deny the Hellenic nature of the ancient kingdom of Macedon and to seek connections between present day ethnic Macedonians and the Ancient Macedonians.

Islamic invasion of India.


Some historians in India deny the atrocities committed by the invading Islamic armies during the Muslim conquest in the Indian subcontinent in order to promote an image of historical "Hindu-Muslim communal amity". Authors like M.N. Roy have written that Islam had fulfilled a historic mission of equality and abolition of discrimination, and that for this, Islam had been welcomed into India by the lower castes. If at all any violence had occurred, it was as a matter of justified class struggle by the progressive forces against the reactionary forces, meaning the feudal Hindu upper castes."



sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism_(negationism)

http://www.answers.com/topic/historical-revisionism-negationism

http://experts.about.com/e/n/ne/Negationism.htm

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Historical_revisionism_(negationism)

[tsunami]

"Turkey and the Armenian Genocide


Main article: Denial of the Armenian Genocide

Turkey has drafted laws like Article 301 that state "A person who publicly insults Turkishness, or the Republic or Turkish Grand National Assembly of Turkey, shall be punishable by imprisonment". This law has been used, for example, to bring charges against writer Orhan Pamuk for stating that "Thirty thousand Kurds and a million Armenians were killed in these lands and nobody but me dares to talk about it".[21] The charges were later dropped.[22]
On Tuesday 7 February 2006 the trial opened against five journalists charged with insulting the judicial institutions of the State, and also of aiming to prejudice a court case (Article 288 of the Turkish penal code).[23] The five were on trial because they criticised a court order to shut down a conference in Istanbul about the mass killing of Armenians by Turks during the Ottoman Empire – the conference was nevertheless eventually held after having been transferred from a state university to a private university. The case was ajourned until 11 April, when four of the journalists were acquitted on a technicality, while as of April 2006 the fifth, Murat Belge, remains on trial. If found guilty he faces a prison term of up to 10 years. The trial is seen as a test case between Turkey and the European Union (EU), which insists that Turkey must allow increased rights to free expression as part of the negotiations on EU membership. [24] [25]
The aim of the conference, organized by a number of academics and intellectuals, was to offer a critical look at the official approach to the events of 1915, a topic that has long been taboo in Turkey.[26]
Ironically, Article 301 was introduced as part of a package of penal-law reform introduced to bring Turkey up to EU standards, in the process preceding the opening of negotations for Turkish EU membership.[27] The Republic of Turkey does not deny the Ottoman Armenian casualties, but contests that they were genocide.

[airwings]

you forget and the new term that use many Albanians

Albanianism as the state ideology was brought to its ultimatelimits during the rule of Enver Hodza, when there was a strong instigation from Tirana of separatist tendencies in Kosovo. The only period when this ideology was not a state one was the time between the two world wars, when the civic parties were in power. In Tirana today there is a strong political factor which is strongly opposed the official politics towards Kosovo. The opposition in Kosovo and Metohija region, gathered around Adem Demadji, is of the view that Ibrahim Rugova and his Democratic Alliance of Kosovo offering false optimism regarding the realization of the Albanian demand, while Democratic Alliance of Kosovo, they say, is transforming itself into a party fighting for a nonexistent power.As the Albanians said

"The religion of Albanians is Albanianism."

http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=2523&l=1

login and read the article.Is very intresting:book:

[tsunami]

Just did, very interesting indeed.

Yesterady, iwent to greek birthday party, late at night, in the party there was a Kosovar girl name Ellah.

When iasked her where she is from she said:

"Kosovo"

And then i said but what are you Albanian or Serbian?

And she went mad, she started shouting to me...saying that there are no Albanian's or serbiams in Kosovo, and that Kosovo is for the Kosovari people who speak their own language.

Anyway, i said sorry and we forgot all about it and kept on dancing.

Anyway, i just felt to share this story as it happened last night.

[WisdomSeeker]

There was a member who hasnt posted for quite long tsunami here,from kosovo and suported the same things.

He always tried to promote a distinct ''kossovarian'' culture ,politics etc,and tried to look down upon his albanian heritage.

It seems that there is a more general tendency from the kossovars ,but i believe our albanian members would be more suitable of informing us on this matter.

[airwings]

Macedonism.


The political idea prevalent in the Republic of Macedonia advocates revising history in order to project an ethnic group that formed in the 20th century - ethnic Macedonians - in the context of the 19th century and even in the middle ages. For example, Bulgarian Tsar Samuil is denied the Bulgarian nature of his kingdom, despite overwhelming evidence supporting it, and is defined as a "Slavic" or "Macedonian" king. Further attempts are made to deny the Hellenic nature of the ancient kingdom of Macedon and to seek connections between present day ethnic Macedonians and the Ancient Macedonians.

Fundamentally, history knows that the "Macedonianism" of Vardar Province's slavophone inhabitants and Albanians is exclusively based on the role played by external factors of paramount importance when in the early 1940s they were transformed into "Macedonians" for political reasons by communist dictators (Tito, Stalin, and Dimitrov) and infamous communist organizations (Comintern and the Balkan Communist Federation).'" In reality, it was not even a self-ascription or ascription by others and assignment of a cause, but a dictatorial order, a forceful conversion that preceded the FYROM Slavs' self-ascription as "Macedonians," resulting in an unorthodox and scandalous creation of a new artificial ethnicity in a manner similar to Byelorussia's formation by Lenin and Stalin.


As Danforth (2000) pointed out, "Given the common nationalist view of the immutability of identity, conversion from one identity to another [by ascription by others] is bound to raise serious questions of authenticity and legitimacy. He also pointed out (p. 100) that "It is possible precisely because Greeks and Macedonians are not born, they are made. National identities, in other words, are not biologically given, they are socially constructed" (p. 87).


That is what happened to the Slavs of the People's Republic of Macedonia. They were not born Macedonians; their Macedonian ethnicity was constructed by the state in 1943-1945. In contrast, the Greek Macedonians, whose forebears always lived in Hellenic Macedonia, always spoke Greek, were not made Macedonians by a totalitarian communist system.......they were born Macedonians."


What characteristics (historical, cultural, genetic, linguistic, or anthropological) does the FYROM population possess- besides inhabiting a section of the former Vardar Province - to be described by communists first, by anthropologists later, as "Macedonian"?
Why did the Slav "Macedonians" describe themselves as Bulgarians from 1870 to 1943 -and many do so today - waiting for almost seventy-five years to be transformed into "Macedonians" by the dictatorial powers of a communist state.
Like the gjore Poets the Bulgarians that transform in Macedonians!!!:crash:


many times I have said
Greeks read Borza,Danforth and Karakadisou.:book:

[airwings]

....and I speak for ethnicity only
i know my english is not good some times

[gjore]

If you want to talk about revisionism, why not mention the fact that even now the greek government doesn't recognise the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of macedonians from it's soil in 1922-23 and 1948?

And how about Greece's stance that there are "no minorities" in Greece?

And how about the Goli Otok type islands in Greece where macedonians, muslims and communists were tortured and sometimes killed. Everybody who is not greek, please read the novel Black seed (Crno Seme)from Tashko Georgievski, it's based on testimonies from people who have been there.

Lets face it, Greece is the bully on the Balkans...

We might have some problems with our neighbours, but we don't hate them as people.

It's Greeks that despise everyone and think everyone is below them. I would just take some of the comments that Alalzia made about the rest of the balkans being a wasteland and people living in bearcaves.

You want stability on the balkans? Greece is one of the major factors of instability.

You want cooperation? How can someone cooperate with you when you don't recognize his existence?

You want Macedonia for yourself? Fine, take it... Lets see how will this Balkan forum function without the heart of the Balkans.

[Balozi]

first of all historical revisionism is not a bad thing. negationism is something else. i dont think these two go together in the same sentence, so in that context the title of this thread is flawed

anyway, gjore your last sentence is a bit silly :P
first of all cause i doubt it's ever going to happen, but even if it will, i wouldn't get so dramatic about it. the world will go on

[WisdomSeeker]

Ah gjore gjore... i thought you had past this stage long ago..... tsk tsk tsk........ :nono: :nono:

Its better to think twice before you speak,check my signature.



If you want to talk about revisionism, why not mention the fact that even now the greek government doesn't recognise the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of macedonians from it's soil in 1922-23 and 1948?


Are you talking about the population exhanges between Greece and Bulgaria mate?:P

and HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS? where did they go? In FYROM? or in Bulgaria? just tell me.


And how about Greece's stance that there are "no minorities" in Greece?

i have stated it many times,obviously you keep on believing your state's propaganda. Ok ,here it is once more:

Greece has a muslim minority in western Thrace,where it flourishes and prospers according to national and international laws.

And since i know exactly where you are getting at,answer me this:

Why the ''macedonians'' in ''Egeska Macedonija'' dont protest about their so called ''suppression'' according to your connationals? Or is Greece so capable of HIDING a suppressed ''minority'' of more than 200,000 people in ''Egeska'' without the whole world knowing it?:bash:

Why everywhere in the balkans suppressed ethnic minorities have caused major public disorders, (greeks in albania,albanians in kossovo and FYROM,turks in Bulgaria,kurds in Turkey),yet there has been NEVER a public disorder in Greece of an ethnic cause?

Gosh,please think before you talk and dont believe what they feed you for once!



And how about the Goli Otok type islands in Greece where macedonians, muslims and communists were tortured and sometimes killed.

I guess you are talking about the island-prisons during the CIVIL WAR? what about them? Every greek knows there have been. well done for discovering sunlight:P



Everybody who is not greek, please read the novel Black seed (Crno Seme)from Tashko Georgievski, it's based on testimonies from people who have been there.


Well,since im greek,that means i dont have to read it. You know what? I dont need it anyway,since my grandfather was prisoned in one of them,so i know much better than your book (which you retain a bible) what happened,from an ''eye witness'' as you say:P



We might have some problems with our neighbours, but we don't hate them as people.

It's Greeks that despise everyone and think everyone is below them. I would just take some of the comments that Alalzia made about the rest of the balkans being a wasteland and people living in bearcaves.

Ah yes,you are very right to judge an entire population under one's person comments on this forum.

Well,that entitles me to say that you FYROMians are the most ignorant,illiterate ,dumb,nationalistic,full of complexes and with a clear identity crisis,since i have seen so much crap posted here from ex members connationals of yours.

If you are right about this,then im right too. Your choice.

If greeks hate your people,then why are you keep coming in Greece for holidays? Why do you search work here? This is dumb. Bulgaria would be more appropriate than Greece if that would be the case.

Isnt that great?:P


Lets face it, Greece is the bully on the Balkans..

ok lets


You want stability on the balkans? Greece is one of the major factors of instability

Greece has published currency with the Aghia Sofia in Instanbul on it. Albania has done the same with the Ali Pasha's palace in Epirus,Slovenia too with Trieste in Italy,Bulgaria with the Thracian coasts in Aegean,Croatia with the Mostar bridge....

Ah yes,FYROM has never published currency with the White Tower in Thessaloniki and naming it ''The capital of Macedonia'',is that right?

Its clear,Greece is a major factor of instability.


Greece's constitution is in full compliance with that of EU's,Bulgaria's,Romania's,Slovenia's same,Albania is reforming its own in order to acquite candidacy status,Serbia's eye is on Eu as well,Croatia too...

FYROM's constitution was the one talking about ''lost motherlands and occupied territories'' needed to be ''liberated'' under one ''Macedonian Flag'' and ''State''.

Yeah,i can see clearly Greece is the ''bad boy'' ....

oh wait,i havent finished:

Wanna talk about inter ethnic risings,riots and stirrings? You can read about them any day in every greek newspaper,as Greece is violently shaking because of them,while in Kossovo and FYROM the ethnic groups are living happily with one another.

As i have said,think twice before you talk. Check my signature:P



You want cooperation? How can someone cooperate with you when you don't recognize his existence?

How do you expect us to recognise your existance,when yourselves havent decided yet what kind of nation are you? 200,000 have applied for bulgarian citizenship so far, 45% are albanian,there are serbs,greeks,turks,roma..how many ''macedonians'' are left?

Try to be consistent at least,if i talk with 4 people of Fyrom,one will tell me he is the descendent of Alexander the great,the second will say no,he is slav,the third will say he is bulgar,the fourth will be albanian!:P

On a more serious note,if you say there is no cooperation between us,then you dont live in FYROM and you havent seen the greek investment there.



You want Macedonia for yourself

We dont want FYROM gjore. We just want our heritage. Its different. When you aknowledge this fact,problems will be solved.



Lets see how will this Balkan forum function without the heart of the Balkans.

I will not comment on that,as you have obviously posted it in a non rationally thinking moment. When you relax,you will understand that you have just said a stupid thing.


WS,at your service:P

[tsunami]

first of all historical revisionism is not a bad thing. negationism is something else. i dont think these two go together in the same sentence, so in that context the title of this thread is flawed

anyway, gjore your last sentence is a bit silly :P
first of all cause i doubt it's ever going to happen, but even if it will, i wouldn't get so dramatic about it. the world will go on
Of course it is Balozi, Historical revisionism is the legitimate form while Historical Revisionism(Negationism) is the illegitimate form, and these examples here are the examples of negationism.

The title of this thread could not be more in place, check the links.

And Gjore, come on...is melodrama your major in literature?

Greece a bully!?!, If we were bullies, this problem we face wouldn't exist now.

But we are not, because we(unlike you) are required to offer an advanced system of human rights as imposed by the EU framework, as WS has already stated.

[Kula]

What's the big deal with minorities? I think Greece is doing the right thing by not giving them extra attention, minorities or no, they should above all be proper citizens of the country, then they should have the freedom to do whatever they want. I think forming special classes, publishing special text books etc is too much, if they want their kids to speak their language they should teach them at home. Why should the state care if their parents aren't interested in keeping their traditions and language? No offence to the Turkish members, but Bulgaria is already experiencing the downsides of too much attention to the Turkish minority from the state, which is causing a growing discontent among Bulgarians.

[gjore]

Ok, since this is my last post here for a while, I would like to clear some things up.

1. WS, you are right, I wrote that post in an irrational moment. I did it after having a bad day, and what can I say, I'm an impulsive person.

However, the reason for the post is not irrational at all.
There has been a new wave of attacks against Macedonia from Airwings and Vancouverite, and I have better things to do in my life than to argue the same things with every greek that comes here.

Did I pass that stage? Yes, with you and Tsunami, but look to what tactics some of your co-nationals revert to.

2. Furthermore, you were right to ban the Macedonians who trolled the forum, but why don't you ban Vancouverite, who is even worse and has even used obsene language against other members.
He is no better than Lakon and Urosh, and he is the opposite of what this forum needs.

3. About my last sentence, I didn't meen it like that...

I ment that some people here obviously don't want Macedonians on this forum, and since I'm the last left and leaving, they will now be able to claim all the Macedonian forums for yourself. I mean, what did you expect when even a simple poetry thread is instantly converted to a major political issue.

OK, that's it. Good Bye for now, maybe I'll return some day when I chill out.

peace

[WisdomSeeker]

Ok, since this is my last post here for a while, I would like to clear some things up.

I regret hearing this,but you are an adult person,you have taken your decision.


1. WS, you are right, I wrote that post in an irrational moment. I did it after having a bad day, and what can I say, I'm an impulsive person.

I thought so,as your post emanated emotions and not rational thinking,this is why i took this stance towards your post. The causes are irrelevant,yet understandable. We are all having bad days afterall.


There has been a new wave of attacks against Macedonia from Airwings and Vancouverite, and I have better things to do in my life than to argue the same things with every greek that comes here.


Airwings is a usual poster,one of the oldest ones in this forum,in which he has contributed enormously with his historical threads and provisions of various bibliographies.Those who have been here long enouph,know it very well,regardless if they agree with his ideas or not. Not every post of his is an attack towards FYROM gjore,he intervenes only when he sees things posted that dont represent the historical truth.

Vancouverite is a totally different case,and he has been warned several times regarding his offensive language by me and Balozi at least twice . He is on thin ice now and unless he changes his behaviour he will not have abright future here.


Did I pass that stage? Yes, with you and Tsunami, but look to what tactics some of your co-nationals revert to.

and infact one of them got himself banned (Lakon),even if he used strong arguments to back up his claims. He was a valid poster,regardless of his ideas.



2. Furthermore, you were right to ban the Macedonians who trolled the forum, but why don't you ban Vancouverite, who is even worse and has even used obsene language against other members.

It was not me who banned them,as i was not a mod then.
For the rest,see my answer above.


3. About my last sentence, I didn't meen it like that...

I ment that some people here obviously don't want Macedonians on this forum, and since I'm the last left and leaving, they will now be able to claim all the Macedonian forums for yourself. I mean, what did you expect when even a simple poetry thread is instantly converted to a major political issue.

point taken. The dispute was not about macedonian forum,it has been for the usual name issue again,concerning literature. Unfortunately,this is where we end up to,since the name problem is unresolved yet,what can i say:roll:

personally,i havent regarded as a major political dispute,as i have stated so in the shoutbox at that time. I always think that with some good will miracles can happen,but what the heck....


OK, that's it. Good Bye for now, maybe I'll return some day when I chill out.

i hope you will come back soon. Take care and chill out. It does good in your helath,doc's advice!:D :victory:

[tsunami]

Gjore, am sorry to hear you have decided to go, however am sure youll miss some people here, especially Jovan , who seems to be a very nice guy.

The problem with the 2 Macedonians is big issue, and i hope it will be solved soon, so that we wont have to face problems as such.

My opinion is once again, keep the name i dont mind, keep your cities as well, i never minded that, but please leave the Macedonian history and heritage to the ones who always had it and protected it.


To be honest, when you opened the thread, i didnt mind, and that is why i didnt post anything in it, until Balozi enhanced his tacticts once more.So i thought that this is a chance to intervene. And come on, Airwings did nothing but post 2 poems, that would enrich your thread, if you look at it from the objective point of view.

Anyway sorry if from time to time, i have been offensive, but truly its not because i hate anyone, i just feel like protecting my own.

[airwings]

gjore
my attempt to highlight the extent to which this brief overview of the development of the "ethinic" Macedonian" national identity should be rather as a first attempt to move beyond the political partisanship of the Macedonian Question. I have tried to develop an alternative narrative, whereby the articulation of national identity is viewed as a process and not as a quality inscribed permanently in the souls of the people. Such a perspective is helpful in providing for a third alternative between the Greek and Bulgarian and Slav-Macedonian mutually exclusive viewpoints I reviewed in this forum.
For Greece recognition of Macedonian national identity raises the issue of Macedonian national minorities in their respective territories of Macedonia—or, to put it differently, a return to the disastrous interwar situation of claims and counterclaims, already reviewed in this forum as also you do IN THIS THREAD.
NEVER use any nationalistic or racist term and you know it very well. I dont have any problem to call you MACEDONIAN , actually no one cant change that but you must re-consider some of your thaughts regarding the Macedonian history from your persepctive. With this attitude, FYROM jeopardizes its chances of surviving as an independent republic, given to your people (the MACEDONIANS) fierce desire for nationalism and interitism.

One Slavmacedonian in one other forum asked very insouciant like a child the below?


Im not very educated in history (only basics) not in detail like u guys...
but i have always been teached at school that
Brigians wore a macedonian tribe... is this true?


Some will understand for what I am talking and in what thread point out?

read this thread again and reconsider some thinks as about WHAT DID YOU LEARN.

thanks and please dont go.

[Slavs]

sorry to hear that gjore

but i`m sure u undearstand the core of the problem our histories
your own is in clash with the rest
no1 claim macedonia (except albanians) but your people are trying to make trouble in the other countries

u can always go and post in your mk forums like
http://forum.idividi.com.mk/forum_topics.asp?FID=68

u will see the attitude of the people who were banned from here
insulting us and there is even topic "are bulgarians really christians"
non stop claims we are tatars and even then bulgarians actually were muslims before they come into the Balkans
u will see we are taking much more insult and humuliation then the macs here :angry019:

[WisdomSeeker]

btw i see some known faces in that forum LOL:D

[Slavs]

btw i see some known faces in that forum LOL:D

yea boogie and lazycat ... such nice company in there
in one post they are calling us brainwashed macedonians
in the next tatars
it`s very funny to speak with them when u are sad or depressed