The Armenian Genocide To Be Recognized In US Congress?

[dimitris]

Armenian bill approaching on US Congressional horizon

US Congressman Adam Schiff has announced that he will soon be proposing a bill to the House of Representative addressing Armenian claims of genocide. Speaking in front of the Turkish Consulate in Los Angeles, Schiff, who represents the 29th District in California, said "With the new leadership in Congress, I am hopeful that we will finally bring this bill forward."

Schiff also noted in his statements that "The American nation must recognize this genocide," and that Turkey should accept responsibility for what the Armenians claim was a genocide against them.

Sources in Washington, DC meanwhile affirm that it looks likely that under the new Democratic leadership, a bill supporting official recognition of the Armenian claims will in fact pass through the Congress. Former President Bill Clinton, who 7 years ago prevented such a bill from passing, told Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan recently that preventing its passage now would be difficult.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/5737490.asp?gid=74

[dimitris]

Armenian killings called 'genocide' by House panel


BY LISA FRIEDMAN, Washington Bureau
Article Last Updated: 10/10/2007 09:52:41 PM PDT

WASHINGTON - Casting aside threats of international retaliation by Turkish officials, the House Foreign Affairs Committee voted Wednesday to unconditionally declare the killing of thousands of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire at the end of World War I a "genocide."

The 27-21 vote came after more than four hours of searing debate pitting calls for America to take a moral stand against the realpolitik of offending Turkey, a major route for air cargo, fuel and other supplies for U.S. troops in Iraq.

Turks, including three members of parliament who flew to Washington for the hearing, looked on grimly as the vote tally was read.

Elderly Armenians, including a handful who lived through the massacres of 1915-23, hugged one another, cheered and wept.

"It's personal for every Armenian. Almost all Armenians have been affected in some way from the genocide that occurred," said Andrew Kzirian of Glendale, in Washington to witness the vote.

Kzirian, executive director of the Armenian National Committee of America's Western Region, called the committee's vote a victory for human rights.

"It shows that members of Congress are very concerned that genocides stop occurring. The goal is not to let it happen again," he said.

The resolution now heads to the House floor, where it stands its first real chance of getting a vote in decades. About 226 lawmakers have co-sponsored the bill, and it is likely to pass if put to a vote.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has indicated she will move it - possibly by Thanksgiving - despite unprecedented pressure from the Bush administration, Turkish officials and many foreign-policy leaders, including all eight living former secretaries of state.

In 2005, the same measure passed the committee by a wider margin, but then-Republican leadership blocked it from coming to the House floor.


Lobbying intense

This year several lawmakers, including Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., and Florida Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, the leading Republican on the panel, changed their votes to oppose the measure.

"Part of the reason the fight was so intense this year is because the Turkish lobby knew that (former House Speaker) Dennis Hastert would never let it go to the floor," said Rep. Adam Schiff, D-Pasadena, the bill's chief sponsor, who is no longer on the panel. "I was lobbying members right up until the moment of the vote."

Every California lawmaker on the committee voted in favor of the resolution, including Reps. Howard Berman, D-Van Nuys; Linda Sanchez, D-Lakewood; Diane Watson, D-Los Angeles; Elton Gallegly, R-Thousand Oaks; Ed Royce, R-Fullerton; Dana Rohrabacher, R-Huntington Beach/Long Beach; and Brad Sherman, D-Sherman Oaks.

L.A. Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa hailed the committee vote and condemned President George W. Bush for urging Congress to reject it.

"We must never - for any reason - seek to clothe the horror of ethnic cleansing in bureaucratic euphemisms," Villaraigosa said in a written statement.

Armenian activists and most historians maintain that 1.5 million Armenians were deported en masse from their homes in what is now modern-day Turkey and slaughtered, and their property was confiscated, as part of a systematic genocide.


Label offends Turks

Turkey acknowledges atrocities were committed in the bloody aftermath of World War I, but strongly opposes the genocide label.

Turkish officials say about 300,000 Armenians were killed when they joined forces with French and Russian soldiers to take up arms against Turks. No lawmakers made that argument Wednesday, however. Even those who voted against the resolution flatly declared that the historical facts point to genocide, but said they were voting based on America's national security interests.

"There was indeed a genocide of the Armenians, and it will not be forgotten," said Rep. Michael Pence, R-Indiana, who called his vote against the resolution "gut-wrenching."

Invoking the biblical saying that to everything there is a season, Pence said Congress should not vote on the bill while U.S. troops are at war in Iraq. "This is a season that calls for standing with our troops first," he said.

Rep. Dan Burton, R-Indiana, took the strongest stand against the resolution and noted that 70 percent of supplies to U.S. troops currently travel through Turkey.

"The stability of the entire Middle East could be at risk," he warned. "Why are we kicking the one ally that is helping us in the face?"

Turkey has raised the possibility of blocking U.S. access to airfields and roads if Congress passes the resolution.


Pressure in Turkey

Egemen Bagis, a member of the Turkish Parliament who attended the hearing, predicted that Turkish lawmakers would face intense political pressure from their own constituents to retaliate.

"No political party can ignore the public pressure. Turkey will have to show a reaction," he said.

But the open threats also angered a number of lawmakers, particularly Californians who said they favor calling Turkey's bluff.

Rohrabacher said he was angry at "the audacity that some Turks have to threaten to cut logistics to U.S. troops."

"Isn't it enough that hundreds of our service members may have died because of Turkey's refusal to enter Iraq (in 2003)?" he said.

Sherman, who helped Schiff lead the fight for the bill, pointed out that the U.S. annually argues for Turkey to gain full membership in the European Union.

Sherman also noted that in 2003, the U.S. gave Turkey $3 billion, which the nation leveraged into $8 billion in loan guarantees.

"We cannot provide genocide denial as one of the perks of friendship with the United States," he said.

Others likened Wednesday's vote to one earlier this year urging the Japanese government to apologize for the abuse of "comfort women" held as sex slaves during World War II.

The Japanese government fought hard against the bill's passage and threatened diplomatic retaliation, which lawmakers said has yet to materialize.

Assemblyman Paul Krekorian, D-Glendale, said there is a direct connection between Armenian genocide early in the 20th century and the genocide today in Darfur.

"When we fail to appropriately respond with condemnation and punishment of those committing genocide we invite the opportunity for future genocide," he said. "House Resolution 106 is not about the Armenian community but about whether America will continue to represent a beacon of justice in the world."

For Dr. Armine Hacopian, a member of the Glendale Community College Board of Trustees, the resolution strikes close to home.

"My father was orphaned when both of his parents were slaughtered in front of him at the age of 6," said Hacopian. "It impacted his life and my family's life. He is no longer alive, and it's a shame that a lot of survivors have passed away and have not lived to see this justice done.

"It's important that this be recognized because when you recognize genocide, it keeps it from repeating itself. We have to take a moral stand."

In the end, many lawmakers acknowledged that Wednesday's vote was an emotional one.

Rep. Gary Ackerman, D-N.Y., pointed to a handful of survivors, some more than 100 years old, waiting to hear the panel's verdict on their history.

"What time can they come back?" Ackerman asked, adding, "Truth never goes out of season."

Staff Writer Tony Castro contributed to this report.

lisa.friedman@langnews.com

(202) 662-8731

source (http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_7142549)

[KsanthoS]

Yes Armenians are killed by Turks in 1915. But what about Turks killed by Armenian terrorists in eastern Anatolia, Turks killed by Pontics in Blacksea Region, Turks killed by Greeks in Aegean Region???? Nobody's talking about those stuff but the Turks.

[Alalzia]

Turks killed by Armenian terrorists in eastern Anatolia, Turks killed by Greeks in Aegean Region????

source?

[dimitris]

Yes Armenians are killed by Turks in 1915. But what about Turks killed by Armenian terrorists in eastern Anatolia, Turks killed by Pontics in Blacksea Region, Turks killed by Greeks in Aegean Region???? Nobody's talking about those stuff but the Turks.

Sure, there were massacres on both sides BUT we are talking about a genocide that was organized by the Ottoman state.For me it`s very obvious that the Ottoman empire was afraid of losing more lands-just as the did in the Balkans-to the Armenians,Assyrians,Greeks and to the Kurds in eastern and northern Turkey and therefore started to commit ethnic cleansing on these people(especially against the christians).I can assure you that if Venizelos and Ataturk wouldn`t had agreed to the population exchange im pretty sure that most of these Greeks would had either been killed or deported back to Greece.Just look at what happened to the Greeks in Istanbul 1955 and 1964.There are very few Greeks left in Istanbul today.It will also be a matter of time where there will be no Greek orthodox patriarchate in Istanbul because of all the restrictions and all the properties that has been seized by the Turkish state.

As for nobody talking about what happened to the Turks is not really true.Even the school books in Greece mentions about the massacres committed by the Greeks against the Turks in Tripolitsa 1821.

[KsanthoS]

@alalalalalazia:


http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_War_of_Independence


Oh and the biggest source noone can deny. My mother-in-law's grand mother was from Tekirdağ, a city in Eastern Thrace. As she tells that when the Greek troops came, they even killed the chickens, dogs, cows.




Dimitris I agree what you're saying but the massacre is not made only by Turks. Those times were bad times and there was a huge world war. Everybody was killing each other. They're blaiming Turkey without any ration 'cos Turk is not the only nation to blame.

[afghan sufi]

oooou i would just love for turkey to boot the us army out of turkey and jack their 50 or so nucleear missiles to as in its on my property its mine hahaha.

the us is really asking for it without the help of turkey the sittuation in the middle east were the US are having some unfruitfull escapades might get a whole lot worse

[KsanthoS]

Turkey says Armenian resolution to harm U.S. ties




By Paul de Bendern
ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkey warned on Thursday that relations with its NATO ally the United States would be harmed by a U.S. House committee's approval of a resolution calling the 1915 massacres of Armenians by Ottoman Turks genocide.
The move came as Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan prepared to ask parliament, which his party controls, to authorize a military incursion into northern Iraq to fight Kurdish Turkish rebels using the region as a base.
"The committee's approval of this resolution was an irresponsible move, which at a greatly sensitive time will make relations with a friend and ally, and a strategic partnership nurtured over generations, more difficult," the centre-right government said in a statement.
"Our government regrets and condemns this decision. It is unacceptable that the Turkish nation has been accused of something that never happened in history," the government said.
Turkey, which has NATO's second biggest army and plays a key role in a volatile region, has warned of damage to bilateral ties and military cooperation if Congress passes the measure.
The House of Representatives Foreign Affairs committee approved the resolution on Wednesday and it now goes to the House floor, where Democratic leaders say there will be a vote by mid-November.
Turkey said it would do all it could to stop the resolution being approved by the assembly.
Ankara rejects the Armenian position, backed by many Western historians and some foreign parliaments, that up to 1.5 million Armenians suffered genocide at the hands of Ottoman Turks during World War One.

Turkey says many Muslim Turks died alongside Christian Armenians in inter-ethnic conflict as the Ottoman Empire collapsed.
IRAQ
The White House had warned the resolution would harm ties with Turkey, which is an important logistics player in the Iraq war.
The bulk of supplies for troops in Iraq pass through Turkey's Incirlik airbase, and Turkey provides thousands of truck drivers and other workers for U.S. operations in Iraq. Supplies also flow from the base to troops in Afghanistan.
Diplomats say the committee's approval of the genocide resolution will weaken U.S. influence over Turkey at a time when the ruling AK Party ponders whether to authorize a major military cross-border operation into northern Iraq.
A large incursion would strain ties with the United States and the European Union, which Ankara hopes to join, and could destabilize Iraq's most peaceful area and potentially the wider region.
But Erdogan is under great pressure to act after rebel attacks have killed some 30 soldiers and civilians in the past two weeks.
He said late on Wednesday that his government could send the request to parliament on Thursday and obtain an approval after a holiday, which begins on Friday, to mark the end of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.
Parliament, where Erdogan's AK Party has a big majority, would have to give permission for troops in big numbers to cross the border into neighboring Iraq. Passing the measure would not automatically mean Turkish troops going into northern Iraq.

Ankara blames rebels of the outlawed Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) for the deaths of more than 30,000 people since the group launched its armed struggle for an ethnic homeland in southeast Turkey in 1984.
Turkey says U.S. and Iraqi authorities have so far failed to crack down on 3,000 PKK rebels believed based in northern Iraq, from where they stage attacks in Turkey.
Large-scale incursions by Turkey in 1995 and 1997, involving an estimated 35,000 and 50,000 troops respectively, failed to dislodge the rebels.
(Additional reporting by Evren Mesci in Ankara and Emma Ross-Thomas in Istanbul)


http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSL1122695420071011

[KsanthoS]

And the question is.

Is USA wants to drive Turkey, which is the 2nd biggest power of NATO, crazy just for a small country Armenia which is not even a member of NATO...

[afghan sufi]

the shite is about to hit the fan je finks, and what ever happens turley is not to blam eif they retaliate by cutting ties not entirely but in diplomatic ways that hinder the us army they have the us to blame for it hehehehe

[dimitris]

And the question is.

Is USA wants to drive Turkey, which is the 2nd biggest power of NATO, crazy just for a small country Armenia which is not even a member of NATO...

I don`t doubt that Turkey is an important geostrategical ally of USA considering Turkey as a large muslim country having good relationship with Israel and as a NATO member who also buys alot of weapons of USA, having played an important role against the communism in the cold war and so on...but on the other hand where were Turkey when USA was going to invade Iraq in 2003?The Turkish parliament rejected USA to use Turkish soil and military bases to invade Iraq.Not that i support the American occupation of Iraq but i think you understand what im trying to say...

When it comes to Armenia, there is a large Armenian community living in USA and where Armenian genocide survivors-believe it or not-managed to escape to USA although they are very old and very few.These Armenian genocide survivors have told their stories on how they were forced to walk in death marches through deserts...how others were brutally killed before the eyes to their children,grandchildren and so on....they want some justice for all the things they have went through in their lives.Just as the Israelis wants the holocaust to be recognized around the world and never be forgotten it`s same for the Armenians.If and when USA recognize the Armenian genocide it will not be the first country.There are already countries that has recognized the Armenian genocide:Lebanon, France, Germany, Sweden, Canada, Argentina...And as i said above, there are surely some members in US congress who are pretty pissed off that Turkey didn`t let USA use Turkish soil and military bases when USA was going to invade Iraq in 2003 and are willing to vote for the Armenian genocide resolution.Although Turkey has closed its border with Armenia and there are no diplomatic relations between Turkey and Armenia, the Armenian government has said that they are prepared to meet the Turkish government to try to solve the problems between their countries without preconditions.But let`s not forget that even if it seems that there is a momentum for the Armenian genocide resolution in US congress, President Bush has said that he is against the recognition of the Armenian genocide.But of course, if the Armenian genocide resolution is approved in US congress it will put pressure on President Bush and future US presidents to recognize the Armenian genocide.

By the way, do you remember when France last year approved a resolution making it criminal to deny the Armenian genocide?Turkey threatened with economic reprisals and warning that French firms could be excluded from public tenders and that a boycott of French goods might be imposed.The only thing Turkey did when the resolution in France was adopted was to end the military cooperation with France.That was all.

And lastly, Turkey is more and more losing its strategical importance for USA.Especially now that USA has a foot in Iraq.There are also American bases in Iraq that will need protection by American soldiers.And even if American soldiers will be withdrawn there will still be American soldiers left to protect the strategic interests of USA and engage in antiterror operations.Do i have to mention the oil and USA:s good relations with the Kurds in northern Iraq?Let`s not forget that USA may use Iraq in a future attack against Iran.

[Darien]

I think some of the member are getting ahead of themselves on this matter.

Before Turkey jeopardizes diplomatic relationships with the US, they will compare the pros and cons of doing so.
My prediction is that the US will make Turkey accept the genocide and still maintain good relationships. I think in the long run might be better for Turkey to accept what they did.

Next, is Greece and the Cham issues :D

[KsanthoS]

The Nagorno Karabakh conflict has resulted in the displacement of 528,000 (this figure does not include new born children of these IDPs) Azerbaijanis from Armenian occupied territories including Nagorno Karabakh, and 220,000 Azeris, 18,000 Kurds and 3,500 Russians fled from Armenia to Azerbaijan from 1988 to 1989.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh#_note-dewaal) The Azerbaijani government has estimated that 63 percent of internally displaced persons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internally_displaced_person) (IDPs) lived below the poverty line as compared to 49% of the total population. About 154,000 lived in the capital, Baku. According to the International Organization for Migration, 40,000 IDPs lived in camps, 60,000 in underground dugout shelters, and 20,000 in railway cars. Forty-thousand IDPs lived in EU-funded settlements and UNHCR provided housing for another 40,000. Another 5,000 IDPs lived in abandoned or rapidly deteriorating schools. Others lived in trains, on roadsides in half-constructed buildings, or in public buildings such as tourist and health facilities. Tens of thousands lived in seven tent camps where poor water supply and sanitation caused gastro-intestinal infections, tuberculosis, and malaria.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh



Armenian Diaspora who raised so-called Armenian genocide allegations on the agenda in every occasion, tried to stain Turkey and defended strongly this stance is shaken by a statement of an American senator. Don Barton, member of Committee for international relations of the US Congress called on Congress to recognize Hocali genocide. Barton said in a session of the House of Representatives, "All communities in the world should know and remember this. The US Congress will break silence of international community regarding this issue, which has continued for long years by recognizing Hocali genocide. Although from time to time, it has been called on the Congressmen to recognize "the so-called Armenian genocide" which has no ground, there has been even one word regarding to the Armenian massacre in Hocali.”
He explained that Hocali, an Azerbaijan city, was erased in maps by Armenians in 1992, all of Azerians means the word of Hocali as sorrow, sadness and cruelty and said that "On February 26, 1992 Armenian troops killed 613 persons in Hocali, held 1.275 persons as prisoner of war, broke the families. 1.000 persons were wounded and disabled, also 150 persons were missing”.


Barton asked to raise the issue on the agenda of the US Congress and to recognize the Hocali genocide.


Solomon Ortiz, a Democrat Congressman and co-chairman of Azerbaijan delegation of the US Congress, said in the House of Representatives that as a result of the invasion of the Armenian Armed Forces in Nogorno-Karabakh and seven regions, 1 million of Azerian people became immigrant and refuge.


Ortiz called on his colleagues to support to be reached the peaceful solution to the Armenian-Azerbaijan conflict and referred the statement of the US State Department, which issued recently and reminded that the USA did not recognize Nogorno-Karabakh as an independent state and not regard its government as legitimate. He explained that although the solution to the issue was tried to be reached within the framework of Minsk group of the OSCE, there was no any concrete result so far, meanwhile the USA continued to work towards this direction and committed the peaceful solution to be reached within the framework of the Minsk group and he referred to the recent decision of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe regarding Nogorno-Karabakh. He pointed out that in the decision it was emphasized that a major part of the Azerbaijan territory is still under the occupation of the Armenian troops and Nogorno-Karabakh is under the control of separatist forces.


Ortiz said that “the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe and the co-chairman of Minsk Group of the OSCE should try to be reached a consensus on the issue and the parties should respect the resolution of the UN Security Council. That is to say, they should avoid from any military action and armed forces should be withdrawn from all territories under the occupation. I applauded the initiatives of the Council of Europe and the statement of the USA administration. He emphasized that Azerbaijan which locates geographically in a region between Russia and Iran, is an important ally of the USA in the struggle of terrorism.


On the other hand, Azerians who live in Canada applied to the German, French, Sweden and Jews communities who live in this country and asked them to support to negotiate the issue of the Hocali genocide in Canadian official bodies and the Parliament in Ottawa.


Aslan Halidi, the president of The Strategic Research Center of "Uyanis" (Resurgence), said that the application was taken a positive reaction from German and Jews communities and in the application they were asked to explain their opinion as a community. He expressed that Armenian lobby group reflected the Azerbaijan-Armenian conflict in Ottawa as a war between Muslims and Christians; the Canadian Parliament will reply the application on which the issue will be negotiated as soon as possible and these applications are under the examination. Halidi also said that various commemoration ceremonies regarding Hocali genocide will be organized in Ottawa and will be distributed materials to Canadian people regarding Armenian cruelty.


On the other hand, the Southern Azerians who live in Iran applied to the Tehran municipality and asked permission to organize a protest in front of Armenian Embassy on 26 February with the reason of Hocali genocide. The Southern Azerians expressed that even if the protest will not be permitted, the protest will be organized in every condition.


Azerian people who live in Azerbaijan and in Diaspora called on that Hocali genocide should be recognized, their violated rights should be returned to them and those who violated these rights should be punished, those who related to these actions should be sanctioned and the foreign states, banks and persons, that seized properties of people who were exposed the genocide should be undertaken material responsibility.

http://cimensel.no-ip.org/TurkishCommunity/Articles+Politics/253.aspx


So, Armenia which made a massacre just 15 years ago can talk about any genocide? There's a Turkish proverb which says "First critisize yourself and then the others". It's clear enough as I can see. *coolverycool*

[Alalzia]

A Turkish site and a wiki article with disputed neutrality, nice. On the disputed one it reads:

"According to Turkish historians and some foreign observers the Greek army massacred or expelled many Turks under its control.[4] [5] Arnold J. Toynbee asserted that there was organised atrocities since the time of the Greek occupation of Smyrna and large scale atrocities of Turkish civilian population had started since June 1921 all over the Greek occupied territoriesThe Turkish nationalist forces also killed numerous Greek and Armenian civilians. The British historian and journalist, Arnold J. Toynbee, stated that when he toured the region he saw Greek villages that had been burned to the ground. Furthermore, Toynbee stated that the Turkish troops had clearly, individually and deliberately burned down each house.[7] It has also been claimed that there was a significant continuity between the organizers of the massacres of 1915-1917 and of 1919-1921 in Eastern Anatolia [8] In the East the advancing Turkish battalions devastated the area and reportedly committed massacres against the civilian Armenian population that did not have time or willingness to leave their homes. [9] [10] After the Turks captured the city of Merdeniq, Armenians launched pogroms against local Muslims in Yerevan and Kars in response. [11][10].
Many Turkish villages in Western Asia Minor were also burned by the retreating Greek army, in what was a Greek scorched earth policy"

:roll:

I think someone should explain the meaning of the word "genocide" .

[WisdomSeeker]

Next, is Greece and the Cham issues :D


Dream on:P

[dimitris]

The Nagorno Karabakh conflict has resulted in the displacement of 528,000 (this figure does not include new born children of these IDPs) Azerbaijanis from Armenian occupied territories including Nagorno Karabakh, and 220,000 Azeris, 18,000 Kurds and 3,500 Russians fled from Armenia to Azerbaijan from 1988 to 1989.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh#_note-dewaal) The Azerbaijani government has estimated that 63 percent of internally displaced persons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internally_displaced_person) (IDPs) lived below the poverty line as compared to 49% of the total population. About 154,000 lived in the capital, Baku. According to the International Organization for Migration, 40,000 IDPs lived in camps, 60,000 in underground dugout shelters, and 20,000 in railway cars. Forty-thousand IDPs lived in EU-funded settlements and UNHCR provided housing for another 40,000. Another 5,000 IDPs lived in abandoned or rapidly deteriorating schools. Others lived in trains, on roadsides in half-constructed buildings, or in public buildings such as tourist and health facilities. Tens of thousands lived in seven tent camps where poor water supply and sanitation caused gastro-intestinal infections, tuberculosis, and malaria.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh



Armenian Diaspora who raised so-called Armenian genocide allegations on the agenda in every occasion, tried to stain Turkey and defended strongly this stance is shaken by a statement of an American senator. Don Barton, member of Committee for international relations of the US Congress called on Congress to recognize Hocali genocide. Barton said in a session of the House of Representatives, "All communities in the world should know and remember this. The US Congress will break silence of international community regarding this issue, which has continued for long years by recognizing Hocali genocide. Although from time to time, it has been called on the Congressmen to recognize "the so-called Armenian genocide" which has no ground, there has been even one word regarding to the Armenian massacre in Hocali.”
He explained that Hocali, an Azerbaijan city, was erased in maps by Armenians in 1992, all of Azerians means the word of Hocali as sorrow, sadness and cruelty and said that "On February 26, 1992 Armenian troops killed 613 persons in Hocali, held 1.275 persons as prisoner of war, broke the families. 1.000 persons were wounded and disabled, also 150 persons were missing”.


Barton asked to raise the issue on the agenda of the US Congress and to recognize the Hocali genocide.


Solomon Ortiz, a Democrat Congressman and co-chairman of Azerbaijan delegation of the US Congress, said in the House of Representatives that as a result of the invasion of the Armenian Armed Forces in Nogorno-Karabakh and seven regions, 1 million of Azerian people became immigrant and refuge.


Ortiz called on his colleagues to support to be reached the peaceful solution to the Armenian-Azerbaijan conflict and referred the statement of the US State Department, which issued recently and reminded that the USA did not recognize Nogorno-Karabakh as an independent state and not regard its government as legitimate. He explained that although the solution to the issue was tried to be reached within the framework of Minsk group of the OSCE, there was no any concrete result so far, meanwhile the USA continued to work towards this direction and committed the peaceful solution to be reached within the framework of the Minsk group and he referred to the recent decision of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe regarding Nogorno-Karabakh. He pointed out that in the decision it was emphasized that a major part of the Azerbaijan territory is still under the occupation of the Armenian troops and Nogorno-Karabakh is under the control of separatist forces.


Ortiz said that “the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe and the co-chairman of Minsk Group of the OSCE should try to be reached a consensus on the issue and the parties should respect the resolution of the UN Security Council. That is to say, they should avoid from any military action and armed forces should be withdrawn from all territories under the occupation. I applauded the initiatives of the Council of Europe and the statement of the USA administration. He emphasized that Azerbaijan which locates geographically in a region between Russia and Iran, is an important ally of the USA in the struggle of terrorism.


On the other hand, Azerians who live in Canada applied to the German, French, Sweden and Jews communities who live in this country and asked them to support to negotiate the issue of the Hocali genocide in Canadian official bodies and the Parliament in Ottawa.


Aslan Halidi, the president of The Strategic Research Center of "Uyanis" (Resurgence), said that the application was taken a positive reaction from German and Jews communities and in the application they were asked to explain their opinion as a community. He expressed that Armenian lobby group reflected the Azerbaijan-Armenian conflict in Ottawa as a war between Muslims and Christians; the Canadian Parliament will reply the application on which the issue will be negotiated as soon as possible and these applications are under the examination. Halidi also said that various commemoration ceremonies regarding Hocali genocide will be organized in Ottawa and will be distributed materials to Canadian people regarding Armenian cruelty.


On the other hand, the Southern Azerians who live in Iran applied to the Tehran municipality and asked permission to organize a protest in front of Armenian Embassy on 26 February with the reason of Hocali genocide. The Southern Azerians expressed that even if the protest will not be permitted, the protest will be organized in every condition.


Azerian people who live in Azerbaijan and in Diaspora called on that Hocali genocide should be recognized, their violated rights should be returned to them and those who violated these rights should be punished, those who related to these actions should be sanctioned and the foreign states, banks and persons, that seized properties of people who were exposed the genocide should be undertaken material responsibility.

http://cimensel.no-ip.org/TurkishCommunity/Articles+Politics/253.aspx


So, Armenia which made a massacre just 15 years ago can talk about any genocide? There's a Turkish proverb which says "First critisize yourself and then the others". It's clear enough as I can see. *coolverycool*

I know that many Azeris were forced to leave Nagorno-Karabach during the war between Armenia and Azerbaijan.But the same thing happened to the Armenians living in Azerbaijan.They were also forced to leave Azerbaijan.Today, there are no Armenians left in Azerbaijan.You don`t have to use Wiki or Turkish sources for that.There are much better sources regarding the war between Armenia and Azerbaijan.When it comes to what happened in Hocali there is no doubt that the Armenians committed massacres against the Azeris. But if it was a genocide or not i really don`t know.But Armenian civilians paid also a high prize because of the war.Just as there were massacres against the Azeris the same thing happened to the Armenians.Regardless if it was a genocide or not commited by the Armenians against the Azeris in Hocali, look what has happened to the Palestinians.There are millions of Palestinians who were forced to leave their own country.Don`t take me wrong now but in nearly every blody war there will always be massacres against civilians.Does that mean that Israel should not have the right to criticize other countries for not recognizing the holocaust?Or does this only apply to Armenia?

[Attila]

source?

proof? where are the 1 million armenian body?

Dimitris "I know that many Azeris were forced to leave Nagorno-Karabach" is a very light statement compare to what they did to Azeris.

They gathered pregnant women and gambled about the gender of the baby simply by doing toss up each other
they raped the women and ripped their stomach by the AK 47 bayonets (the same gamble was also played by their grand fathers)
The place of where these terrible incidents happened is called "HOCALI"

They played football with the heads of bold and round hedaded people

[Attila]

Kshantos you do not have to show them source
because they do not show us any proof?
proof means tengible dude
more than words and testimonies

there are 100000 of testimonies about Ailens
but no proof
it is exactly like that

I won't answer thier rigged game anymore I am fed up with that
This is a game played by the parties whose intentions are identical
who are the supporters of so called Armenian genocide believers?
Armenians-Greeks-French
it is either sworn haters and enemies of Turks or the people who are possessed by them
nothing else
It is enough! You tagging us as genociders(This is the highest insult that a nation can face) without shame of what you have done in your backgorund
You can only proove something on the self prepared documents
but you cannot find any concentration camp anything tengible that proof a genocide
SO ROLL YOUR DOCUMENTS AND SOURCES and USE IT apporprietly!!!!!

[dimitris]

proof? where are the 1 million armenian body?

Dimitris "I know that many Azeris were forced to leave Nagorno-Karabach" is a very light statement compare to what they did to Azeris.

They gathered pregnant women and gambled about the gender of the baby simply by doing toss up each other
they raped the women and ripped their stomach by the AK 47 bayonets (the same gamble was also played by their grand fathers)
The place of where these terrible incidents happened is called "HOCALI"

They played football with the heads of bold and round hedaded people

Let`s take this from the beginning:



The term was coined in 1943 by the Jewish-Polish lawyer Raphael Lemkin who combined the Greek word "genos" (race or tribe) with the Latin word "cide" (to kill).

After witnessing the horrors of the Holocaust - in which every member of his family except his brother and himself was killed - Dr Lemkin campaigned to have genocide recognised as a crime under international law.

His efforts gave way to the adoption of the UN Convention on Genocide in December 1948, which came into effect in January 1951.

source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1701562.stm)



Article 2

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


Article 3

The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;

(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

(d ) Attempt to commit genocide;

(e) Complicity in genocide.

To read the other articles click here (http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/p_genoci.htm)


Regardless of how many Armenians were killed, this is what Raphael Lemkin said in a interview who coined the term "genocide".




In 1948 the young United Nations debated a resolution to ban the mass murder of any group on the basis of its religion, race or ethnicity even if the killings occurred within the borders of a sovereign nation, but before this crime could be made into law, it needed a name.

Quincy Howe: Genocide is a new word combining the Greek word genos, meaning “race” or “group,” with the root of the Latin caedere, meaning “to kill.” Dr. Raphael Lemkin is the man who created the word genocide; Dr. Lemkin could you give us a little background on how you came to be interested in this genocide?

Dr. Lemkin: I became interested in genocide because it happened so many times; it happened to the Armenians and after the Armenians, Hitler took action.

source (http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:Bbb9dn2HNvkJ:www.americaa broadmedia.org/media/On%2520line%2520extra%2520materials/Darfur%2520-%2520Program%2520Transcript.doc+Because+ it+happened+so+many+times,+it+happened+t he+Armenians,+after+the+Armenians+Hitler +took+action&hl=sv&ct=clnk&cd=4)

[Attila]

so?
it still doesn't count as a proof
however it counts for what you did in Cyprus and we got many many many many tengible proofs about it
Thanks for the info Dimitris anyway :):)
Will you be able to come up with something more than words or will it go like this as vicious cirlce?

all I need is just a mass grave to believe thats all I am asking you
I promise that I will believe and support

But until then it must be a crime to slander people as genociders!

[dimitris]

proof? where are the 1 million armenian body?

Dimitris "I know that many Azeris were forced to leave Nagorno-Karabach" is a very light statement compare to what they did to Azeris.

They gathered pregnant women and gambled about the gender of the baby simply by doing toss up each other
they raped the women and ripped their stomach by the AK 47 bayonets (the same gamble was also played by their grand fathers)
The place of where these terrible incidents happened is called "HOCALI"

They played football with the heads of bold and round hedaded people

It`s obvious that you didn`t read my post carefully.Let me quote myself:


When it comes to what happened in Hocali there is no doubt that the Armenians committed massacres against the Azeris. But if it was a genocide or not i really don`t know.

We can always talk about the details but a massacre is a massacre.The question is here whether what happened in Hocali is a genocide or not.And to be honest i really don`t know.

[dimitris]

so?
it still doesn't count as a proof
however it counts for what you did in Cyprus and we got many many many many tengible proofs about it
Thanks for the info Dimitris anyway :):)
Will you be able to come up with something more than words or will it go like this as vicious cirlce?

all I need is just a mass grave to believe thats all I am asking you
I promise that I will believe and support

But until then it must be a crime to slander people as genociders!

Once again you didn`t read my post carefully.Just the intention to commit a genocide could actually be labeled as genocide.But i guess you didn`t read that either.

[Attila]

Once again you didn`t read my post carefully.Just the intention to commit a genocide could actually be labeled as genocide.But i guess you didn`t read that either.

so could you tell me please
according to this definitons
Greeks
Spain,France,Armenia why they don't be labeled as genociders
but only because of some prearrenged documents and legends You feel full right to call us genociders???
aren't you being hypocrite?

[Attila]

Most of the countries has a massacre background. I admit that Ottoman empire was also cruel because of it's imperial status
Empires has always been cruel but for Ottoman empire it is not logical to commit genocide because;

There are still many armenian people living in Turkey + 1 million is not a logical number for a small nation in thsoe days
+ there are evidences that they were deported not murdered
+there is no evidence of any genocidal attempt

Did you know how many Africans died while they were carrying the equipment of British soldiers?
only carrying dude!
witout food,water,medial attention
around 1 million africans died

Why you don't go after the genocides that actually happened and you can proove easly but you insist on something really didin't happen to make it look like it happened?
can it be because of we invaded you for 500 years an converted your beloved church to a mosque?
Thousands of Turkish people marched only because of 1 Armenian assasinated do not forget that!
Those people didin't march because they admit a so called genocide they marched because we protect the democarcy
and all the people living in Turkey
and you are saying that 1 million armenian taken and murdered by troops however their neighbours didin't say anything?
you must be crazy

[dimitris]

so could you tell me please
according to this definitons
Greeks
Spain,France,Armenia why they don't be labeled as genociders
but only because of some prearrenged documents and legends You feel full right to call us genociders???
aren't you being hypocrite?

Let me put it like this: All countries has more or less dark chapters in their history.Whether it is Greece,France,Armenia,Spain....All countries has to recognize their wrongdoings whether they have committed massacres or genocides.And if you read in one of my posts i wrote that the schoolbooks in Greece mentions about the massacre committed by the Greeks against the Turks in Tripolitsa 1821.BUT I GUESS YOU DIDN`T READ THAT EITHER.There is a strong consensus among many international historians that the Armenian genocide has actually occured.Of course there are always historians who have a different opinion but they are in minority.Check out this letter written by a organization called "Institute for the Study of Genocide (ISG) and International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS)" urging the chairman of House Foreign Affairs Committee to pass the Armenian genocide resolution:

http://www.noplacefordenial.com/2007/10/international-association-of-genocide_05.html

And here is their website:

http://www.isg-iags.org/

And as i said before, USA if and when they recognize the Armenian genocide would not be the first country to recognize the Armenian genocide.Actually the Armenian genocide resolution in US congress doesn`t blame the Turkish republic today for committing this genocide but rather the Ottoman empire.The same thing goes for Germany.It is not Germany today to be blamed for what happened the Jews but rather the Third Reich.But Germany has taken its responsibility and recognized the holocaust.

[dimitris]

Most of the countries has a massacre background. I admit that Ottoman empire was also cruel because of it's imperial status
Empires has always been cruel but for Ottoman empire it is not logical to commit genocide because;

There are still many armenian people living in Turkey + 1 million is not a logical number for a small nation in thsoe days
+ there are evidences that they were deported not murdered
+there is no evidence of any genocidal attempt

Did you know how many Africans died while they were carrying the equipment of British soldiers?
only carrying dude!
witout food,water,medial attention
around 1 million africans died

Why you don't go after the genocides that actually happened and you can proove easly but you insist on something really didin't happen to make it look like it happened?
can it be because of we invaded you for 500 years an converted your beloved church to a mosque?
Thousands of Turkish people marched only because of 1 Armenian assasinated do not forget that!
Those people didin't march because they admit a so called genocide they marched because we protect the democarcy
and all the people living in Turkey
and you are saying that 1 million armenian taken and murdered by troops however their neighbours didin't say anything?
you must be crazy


Most of the countries has a massacre background.

Agreed.


I admit that Ottoman empire was also cruel because of it's imperial status
Empires has always been cruel but for Ottoman empire it is not logical to commit genocide because;

There are still many armenian people living in Turkey + 1 million is not a logical number for a small nation in thsoe days


Many Armenians?I have heard numbers like 40-60 thousand or so...and of course there are also crypto Armenians and they are like 30-40 thousand(could be more) but i wouldn`t call that many if you compare to how many the Armenians were before the genocide started.


+ there are evidences that they were deported not murdered
+there is no evidence of any genocidal attempt

Actually there are.There are even Turkish historians who recognize the Armenian genocide.


Did you know how many Africans died while they were carrying the equipment of British soldiers?
only carrying dude!
witout food,water,medial attention
around 1 million africans died

Read my post above.


Why you don't go after the genocides that actually happened and you can proove easly but you insist on something really didin't happen to make it look like it happened?
can it be because of we invaded you for 500 years an converted your beloved church to a mosque?
Thousands of Turkish people marched only because of 1 Armenian assasinated do not forget that!
Those people didin't march because they admit a so called genocide they marched because we protect the democarcy
and all the people living in Turkey
and you are saying that 1 million armenian taken and murdered by troops however their neighbours didin't say anything?
you must be crazy

It is obvious you are trying to flame here.Keep up the good work.

[Attila]

Let me put it like this: All countries has more or less dark chapters in their history.Whether it is Greece,France,Armenia,Spain....All countries has to recognize their wrongdoings whether they have committed massacres or genocides.And if you read in one of my posts i wrote that the schoolbooks in Greece mentions about the massacre committed by the Greeks against the Turks in Tripolitsa 1821.BUT I GUESS YOU DIDN`T READ THAT EITHER.There is a strong consensus among many international historians that the Armenian genocide has actually occured.Of course there are always historians who have a different opinion but they are in minority.Check out this letter written by a organization called "Institute for the Study of Genocide (ISG) and International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS)" urging the chairman of House Foreign Affairs Committee to pass the Armenian genocide resolution:

http://www.noplacefordenial.com/2007/10/international-association-of-genocide_05.html

And here is their website:

http://www.isg-iags.org/

And as i said before, USA if and when they recognize the Armenian genocide would not be the first country to recognize the Armenian genocide.Actually the Armenian genocide resolution in US congress doesn`t blame the Turkish republic today for committing this genocide but rather the Ottoman empire.The same thing goes for Germany.It is not Germany today to be blamed for what happened the Jews but rather the Third Reich.But Germany has taken its responsibility and recognized the holocaust.

Hold on there now are you putting Turks and Germans in the same basket??
You have completely lost it
There is not even similarity between those two

I have read that post you mentioned now but I am actually reffering to Cyprus issue it was ethnic cleansing
howcome you don't recognize it as a genocide and the fine of this attempt should end up Greeks recognizing the TRNC
I don't want to get in that matter but as you see there are many tengible proofs for what other people did
although you don't have anything that I can hold with my hands very clearly
You cannot make anyone here accept to be in the same basket with NAZI's
But Greek EOKA and other komitas share the same intention and way of action with them and you cannot deny it. Would you like to have some proof?
look at the bullet holes in the houses of TRNC or ask the Orphans (most of the ones prefer to be know as orphans if you know what I mean)

You already do not want to accept this incident
and how can you make us accept what "some" historians said?

Armanian + Greek diaspora buying many writers to act for their will can you also deny this?
yeah simply you will say proof it bring documents etc.
dude bribes are not taz payed so I cannot find their reciepts

[Attila]

It is obvious you are trying to flame here.Keep up the good work.

Why do you get offended your national sacred agenda doesn't seem to be so secret

When I am talking about evidence I don't want any more crap from you because I don't care what X people say

I want to see something like this

http://www.tbmm.gov.tr/yayinlar/yayin3/arm111_150.pdf

Who are gonna pay for those people? Town halls mosques houses locked and burned by the arsonists and Komitas of Armenians
There is your proof now give me mine or
"how about a nice cup of..."

[Attila]

You need balls to say something against the pact of Armenian and Greek diaspora

"Shaw criticized for denying Armenian Genocide and even confronted assaults such as the bombing of his Los Angeles home by Armenian extremists in 1977"

same thread was directed on Mccarthy when he prooved that it is an emperialist lie
Turkish population reduced %40 percent in Anatolia
However the imigrations helped increasing it a little

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_J._Shaw

[dimitris]

Hold on there now are you putting Turks and Germans in the same basket??
You have completely lost it
There is not even similarity between those two

I have read that post you mentioned now but I am actually reffering to Cyprus issue it was ethnic cleansing
howcome you don't recognize it as a genocide and the fine of this attempt should end up Greeks recognizing the TRNC
I don't want to get in that matter but as you see there are many tengible proofs for what other people did
although you don't have anything that I can hold with my hands very clearly
You cannot make anyone here accept to be in the same basket with NAZI's
But Greek EOKA and other komitas share the same intention and way of action with them and you cannot deny it. Would you like to have some proof?
look at the bullet holes in the houses of TRNC or ask the Orphans (most of the ones prefer to be know as orphans if you know what I mean)

You already do not want to accept this incident
and how can you make us accept what "some" historians said?

Armanian + Greek diaspora buying many writers to act for their will can you also deny this?
yeah simply you will say proof it bring documents etc.
dude bribes are not taz payed so I cannot find their reciepts


You have completely lost it
There is not even similarity between those two

If modern Germany could take its responsibility to recognize the holocaust i think modern Turkey could do it too.Or at least try to create an enviroment where the journalists and historians in Turkey could speak more freely about this sensitive issue in Turkey.And what i have read is that Turkey will amend article 301 which i think is a step in the right direction.


I have read that post you mentioned now but I am actually reffering to Cyprus issue it was ethnic cleansing
howcome you don't recognize it as a genocide and the fine of this attempt should end up Greeks recognizing the TRNC
I don't want to get in that matter but as you see there are many tengible proofs for what other people did
although you don't have anything that I can hold with my hands very clearly
You cannot make anyone here accept to be in the same basket with NAZI's
But Greek EOKA and other komitas share the same intention and way of action with them and you cannot deny it. Would you like to have some proof?
look at the bullet holes in the houses of TRNC or ask the Orphans (most of the ones prefer to be know as orphans if you know what I mean)

You already do not want to accept this incident
and how can you make us accept what "some" historians said?



When it comes to the Cyprus issue it is very clearly that both sides had committed terrible things.There were two kinds of EOKA: EOKA had the support of the GreekCypriots to fight for independence against the Brittish rule.EOKA-B was not supported by the GreekCypriots but rather by the Greek military junta in Greece.It was a right-wing fascist organization who not only killed TurkishCypriots but also GreekCypriots who were friendly to Makarios.And when Turkey invaded Cyprus 1974 they didn`t behave like a peace army.There are still today both TurkishCypriots and GreekCypriots missing today.And of course there are also TurkishCypriots and GreekCypriots who were killed in intercommunal fightings.But i disagree with you that the Greeks has committed ethnic cleansing against the TurkishCypriots.


Armanian + Greek diaspora buying many writers to act for their will can you also deny this?
yeah simply you will say proof it bring documents etc.
dude bribes are not taz payed so I cannot find their reciepts

Of course there are corrupted journalists who are prepared to write anything if you just give them some candy.:)That is a universal problem.

[dimitris]

Why do you get offended your national sacred agenda doesn't seem to be so secret

When I am talking about evidence I don't want any more crap from you because I don't care what X people say

I want to see something like this

http://www.tbmm.gov.tr/yayinlar/yayin3/arm111_150.pdf

Who are gonna pay for those people? Town halls mosques houses locked and burned by the arsonists and Komitas of Armenians
There is your proof now give me mine or
"how about a nice cup of..."

You can do better than that.You posted a Turkish source which doesn`t prove anything.Did you find this on the Turkish parliaments website?Hahhahahaha

[dimitris]

You need balls to say something against the pact of Armenian and Greek diaspora

"Shaw criticized for denying Armenian Genocide and even confronted assaults such as the bombing of his Los Angeles home by Armenian extremists in 1977"

same thread was directed on Mccarthy when he prooved that it is an emperialist lie
Turkish population reduced %40 percent in Anatolia
However the imigrations helped increasing it a little

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_J._Shaw


Hahhahahhaah...wiki sources..hahhahahahaha...

[Attila]

You may find it funny as your ancsestors found it funny while they are taking the unfortunate action.

It is nice to know that you also have the similar murderer sense of humor

As I mentioned before, you need balls to write, publish or believe anything against the pact of Greek and Armenian Diaspora

If you don't believe or you have any doubts
Turkish government always put files and tengible proofs on the table

They should come and check

Do you know why nobody comes to find the Truth?
Why Turkish callings never find an audience who wants to do research in Turkey?

They fear about this international lie will collapse
thats why!

So your sources doesn't mean anything to me unless you don't bring me proof!


"The Turkish History professor Stanford Shaw of U.C.L.A. was one of them, and on October 3, 1977, the Armenian bullies threw a bomb, and blew up the front portion of his house. He and his family had to leave the campus under a death threat."

http://www.karabakh.gen.az/contents.php?cid=270
not from Turkey
I know you will find another excuse to deny bring it on


How about a Greek site?

http://www.hri.org/news/turkey/anadolu/1999/99-10-16.anadolu.html
[56] October 4, 1977 - Los Angeles, the U.S. Bomb attack at the house of Prof. Stanford Shaw, who teaches Ottoman history at the University of California in Los Angeles (UCLA). Responsibility is claimed by an ''Armenian Group of 28.''

[Attila]

I know what happened in Turkey those days I know what happened in Erzurum because my home town is near to that village.
The black propaganda and self-proofing each other of Armenians,Greeks,Serbians,French + their diasporas won't work
because you don't have what you need
which is called TRUE TENGIBLE EVIDENCE

as I said before "how about a nice..." you know how it goes.

Make me believe dude just make me believe
show me what you got?

[dimitris]

You may find it funny as your ancsestors found it funny while they are taking the unfortunate action.

It is nice to know that you also have the similar murderer sense of humor

As I mentioned before, you need balls to write, publish or believe anything against the pact of Greek and Armenian Diaspora

If you don't believe or you have any doubts
Turkish government always put files and tengible proofs on the table

They should come and check

Do you know why nobody comes to find the Truth?
Why Turkish callings never find an audience who wants to do research in Turkey?

They fear about this international lie will collapse
thats why!

So your sources doesn't mean anything to me unless you don't bring me proof!


"The Turkish History professor Stanford Shaw of U.C.L.A. was one of them, and on October 3, 1977, the Armenian bullies threw a bomb, and blew up the front portion of his house. He and his family had to leave the campus under a death threat."

http://www.karabakh.gen.az/contents.php?cid=270
not from Turkey
I know you will find another excuse to deny bring it on


How about a Greek site?

http://www.hri.org/news/turkey/anadolu/1999/99-10-16.anadolu.html
[56] October 4, 1977 - Los Angeles, the U.S. Bomb attack at the house of Prof. Stanford Shaw, who teaches Ottoman history at the University of California in Los Angeles (UCLA). Responsibility is claimed by an ''Armenian Group of 28.''



You may find it funny as your ancsestors found it funny while they are taking the unfortunate action.

It is nice to know that you also have the similar murderer sense of humor

As I mentioned before, you need balls to write, publish or believe anything against the pact of Greek and Armenian Diaspora

If you don't believe or you have any doubts
Turkish government always put files and tengible proofs on the table

They should come and check

Do you know why nobody comes to find the Truth?
Why Turkish callings never find an audience who wants to do research in Turkey?

They fear about this international lie will collapse
thats why!

So your sources doesn't mean anything to me unless you don't bring me proof!

Blah blah blah....



"The Turkish History professor Stanford Shaw of U.C.L.A. was one of them, and on October 3, 1977, the Armenian bullies threw a bomb, and blew up the front portion of his house. He and his family had to leave the campus under a death threat."

http://www.karabakh.gen.az/contents.php?cid=270
not from Turkey
I know you will find another excuse to deny bring it on


How about a Greek site?

http://www.hri.org/news/turkey/anado...6.anadolu.html
[56] October 4, 1977 - Los Angeles, the U.S. Bomb attack at the house of Prof. Stanford Shaw, who teaches Ottoman history at the University of California in Los Angeles (UCLA). Responsibility is claimed by an ''Armenian Group of 28.''

The first link you posted was an Azerbaijani source and the second link you posted was on a greek site BUT with a Turkish source:"Anadolu Agency: News in English, 99-10-16".Doesn`t sound Greek to me.

Keep up the good work.You might soon break your own record.Hahahahahhahah

[dimitris]

I know what happened in Turkey those days I know what happened in Erzurum because my home town is near to that village.
The black propaganda and self-proofing each other of Armenians,Greeks,Serbians,French + their diasporas won't work
because you don't have what you need
which is called TRUE TENGIBLE EVIDENCE

as I said before "how about a nice..." you know how it goes.

Make me believe dude just make me believe
show me what you got?

Blah blah blah...it doesn`t matter what i will post.The Grey wolf in your avatar says everything who you are...Hahahhahahahah

[dimitris]

I know what happened in Turkey those days I know what happened in Erzurum because my home town is near to that village.
The black propaganda and self-proofing each other of Armenians,Greeks,Serbians,French + their diasporas won't work
because you don't have what you need
which is called TRUE TENGIBLE EVIDENCE

as I said before "how about a nice..." you know how it goes.

Make me believe dude just make me believe
show me what you got?


Show you what i got?You are contradicting yourself.LOOK WHAT YOU WROTE:


So your sources doesn't mean anything to me unless you don't bring me proof!

Then why do you ****ing care?HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

[Attila]

blah blah blah to you dimitris
cuz you spend more words but no reality in them

if you continue loughing like that I am afraid soon you will tear up.
I told you that this is a vicious circle you cannot proove anything because you can show me no camps, no mass graves, no pictures of mass graves
simply nothing.

I cannot proove you anything because we are not christians and sworn enemies.

(I don't see Greece as an enemy do not confuse me with your own intentions)

[Attila]

Show you what i got?You are contradicting yourself.LOOK WHAT YOU WROTE:



Then why do you ****ing care?HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

Show me where do I contradict myself? are you also seing an imaginary friend?

I know ou have delusions about so called genocide
but I didin't know that you have it in your daily life too

I don't care what you wrote or what you think

I just don't want to be tagged as genociders only because some sworn enemies want it to happen

I don't like wars and of course massacres but sometimes I say when we had the chance we should have destroyed your tiny piece of land with you so you wouldn't be future problem
we had that chance for 500 years but look what we did instead of killing you all we feed you to be our grave diggers
since you are breathing today
everyday you should be thankful to us that we weren't as bad as you try to present!
that you still speak your language and you still can keep your identity
Ottoman empire gave your patriarch the right to be the leader of all orthodox christianity by backing up you with everything state has.

[dimitris]

blah blah blah to you dimitris
cuz you spend more words but no reality in them

if you continue loughing like that I am afraid soon you will tear up.
I told you that this is a vicious circle you cannot proove anything because you can show me no camps, no mass graves, no pictures of mass graves
simply nothing.

I cannot proove you anything because we are not christians and sworn enemies.

(I don't see Greece as an enemy do not confuse me with your own intentions)

Blah bla bla.

[dimitris]

Show me where do I contradict myself? are you also seing an imaginary friend?

I know ou have delusions about so called genocide
but I didin't know that you have it in your daily life too

I don't care what you wrote or what you think

I just don't want to be tagged as genociders only because some sworn enemies want it to happen

I don't like wars and of course massacres but sometimes I say when we had the chance we should have destroyed your tiny piece of land with you so you wouldn't be future problem
we had that chance for 500 years but look what we did instead of killing you all we feed you to be our grave diggers
since you are breathing today
everyday you should be thankful to us that we weren't as bad as you try to present!
that you still speak your language and you still can keep your identity
Ottoman empire gave your patriarch the right to be the leader of all orthodox christianity by backing up you with everything state has.

Bla bla bla.

[dimitris]

Antyhing more you want to tell?Hahahahahhahahah.

[Attila]

Antyhing more you want to tell?Hahahahahhahahah.


ehehhe :) You inferiority complexed people doing it only to punish us because of what happened for 500 years isn't it :)
since we cleared it up...
I leave you in your imaginary world I got some business to attend in real world.
I really wish my ancestors were genociders but apperantly(unfortunatelly) they weren't :)

[dimitris]

ehehhe :) You inferiority complexed people doing it only to punish us because of what happened for 500 years isn't it :)

Come on man you can do better than that.:)

[dimitris]

ehehhe :) You inferiority complexed people doing it only to punish us because of what happened for 500 years isn't it :)
since we cleared it up...
I leave you in your imaginary world I got some business to attend in real world.

Hahahahha..the Grey wolf will go out for hunting...

[dimitris]

ehehhe :) You inferiority complexed people doing it only to punish us because of what happened for 500 years isn't it :)
since we cleared it up...
I leave you in your imaginary world I got some business to attend in real world.
I really wish my ancestors were genociders but apperantly(unfortunatelly) they weren't :)

You do?You must be a sick man.:)

[dimitris]

Show me where do I contradict myself? are you also seing an imaginary friend?


Actually you do.Look what you wrote:



I don't like wars and of course massacres but sometimes I say when we had the chance we should have destroyed your tiny piece of land with you so you wouldn't be future problem

I really wish my ancestors were genociders but apperantly(unfortunatelly) they weren't


On the one hand you said that you are against wars and massacres but on the other hand you wished that the Turks completely destroyed and genocided the Greeks.Talk about contradicting yourself!O.o

[Makeveli]

On the one hand you said that you are against wars and massacres but on the other hand you wished that the Turks completely destroyed and genocided the Greeks.Talk about contradicting yourself!O.o

Attila is always justifying the ottoman empire's crimes...

I know a few Turks like him, play nice in you face, but dreams about killing you and your culture ....

Many dream of there old empire, but at the same time forget how fellow muslims like Arabs dreamed of freedom from does Turks, and not only Arabs, Kurds to, and many more, wonder why ? ...

There goes your dream ..... !!

[Attila]

On the one hand you said that you are against wars and massacres but on the other hand you wished that the Turks completely destroyed and genocided the Greeks.Talk about contradicting yourself!O.o

Does my contradiction with myself has anything to do with the Ottoman empire and your endless efforts with
Serbian,Armenian,Greek revenge pact?

Since you still breath that means we are not the people you are trying to present the rest of the world thats it
in 500 years how many times Ottomans had the chance to kill your family? millions may be but you are alive don't you? it is not 10 years not 30 not 100 it is 500 damn years without protection of anyone.

[Attila]

Attila is always justifying the ottoman empire's crimes...

I know a few Turks like him, play nice in you face, but dreams about killing you and your culture ....

Many dream of there old empire, but at the same time forget how fellow muslims like Arabs dreamed of freedom from does Turks, and not only Arabs, Kurds to, and many more, wonder why ? ...

There goes your dream ..... !!

Crimes which Crimes Serbian? show me anything like Srebrenica I will believe that we have been like Serbians
Bring me a hard proof that is all I am asking you but your SLANDERING pact is not able to bring nothing more than words
Do you want me to put my entire nation to the same baskey with butcher Serbians and Nazis that have hard proof of their attrocities?

I didin't like the Ottoman empire at all any acts of it. I have never dreamed of ottoman empire
in the History of TR lessons in Turkish Universities
it strarts with the last subjects who gained the independence from Ottoman Empire was Turks
I know many people like you e.g your beloved leader slobodan milosevic

show me this Serbian
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Srebrenica2007.jpg

Where is the hard proof of so called Turkish Crime?

[dimitris]

Does my contradiction with myself has anything to do with the Ottoman empire and your endless efforts with
Serbian,Armenian,Greek revenge pact?

Since you still breath that means we are not the people you are trying to present the rest of the world thats it
in 500 years how many times Ottomans had the chance to kill your family? millions may be but you are alive don't you? it is not 10 years not 30 not 100 it is 500 damn years without protection of anyone.


Does my contradiction with myself has anything to do with the Ottoman empire and your endless efforts with
Serbian,Armenian,Greek revenge pact?

Yeah, as if I woke every morning thinking that I would start my day by killing a Turk.:bash:
You are completely paranoid believing that Turkey has full of enemies.


Since you still breath that means we are not the people you are trying to present the rest of the world thats it
in 500 years how many times Ottomans had the chance to kill your family? millions may be but you are alive don't you? it is not 10 years not 30 not 100 it is 500 damn years without protection of anyone.

Don`t try to backpeddle.I quoted you and that is your words.Now go and get a life.

[Attila]

I didin't step back I just said what I am thinking about you has nothing to do with the actions of Ottoman empire
What I am thinking is just contradicting the acts of Ottomans it is that simple :)


Yeah, as if I woke every morning thinking that I would start my day by killing a Turk.

Do you think you are keeping your intentions secret?
A person who spends 1 week in this forum could easly
tell your so called "secret" agenda.



I know a few Turks like him, play nice in you face, but dreams about killing you and your culture ....

Why the hell should I give a damn about killing you and your culture :D:D
We are not even close geographically nobody cares what you do
We left caring about you in the beggining of 19th centruy :)
I don't have anything against Serbs I actually like them I am sturdying russian now in the future I believe it will help me to learn Serbian too

[dimitris]

I didin't step back I just said what I am thinking about you has nothing to do with the actions of Ottoman empire
What I am thinking is just contradicting the acts of Ottomans it is that simple :)



Do you think you are keeping your intentions secret?
A person who spends 1 week in this forum could easly
tell your so called "secret" agenda.




Why the hell should I give a damn about killing you and your culture :D:D
We are not even close geographically nobody cares what you do
We left caring about you in the beggining of 19th centruy :)
I don't have anything against Serbs I actually like them I am sturdying russian now in the future I believe it will help me to learn Serbian too

Now you try to joke about it and play the nice guy.This is your words and YOU CAN`T DENY IT:


I don't like wars and of course massacres but sometimes I say when we had the chance we should have destroyed your tiny piece of land with you so you wouldn't be future problem

I really wish my ancestors were genociders but apperantly(unfortunatelly) they weren't

End of discussion.

[Attila]

Yeah they are my words I didin't deny them so what it has to do with the actions of Ottoman Empire?

Why are you trying so hard to manipulate it?
is that because you don't have any proof to stand behind your emperialist lie?

You are really funny :D I enjoy your efforts by the way
when you say genocide it is something that you may easily proove and your proofs should be so obvious that nobody can deny.
Since you cannot bring such a proof now you start to attack my personality :) good job dude

[dimitris]

Yeah they are my words I didin't deny them so what it has to do with the actions of Ottoman Empire?

Why are you trying so hard to manipulate it?
is that because you don't have any proof to stand behind your emperialist lie?

What Attila said:


I don't like wars and of course massacres but sometimes I say when we had the chance we should have destroyed your tiny piece of land with you so you wouldn't be future problem

I really wish my ancestors were genociders but apperantly(unfortunatelly) they weren't

And now Attila has even comfirmed that he actually wrote these words by saying this:


Yeah they are my words I didin't deny them so what it has to do with the actions of Ottoman Empire?

Well at least you are being honest now.I give you that.And then you asked from me that i will have to post real proof about the Armenian genocide when you wrote that you hope your ancestors were genociders.O.o

[Attila]

ahahahahahahahahahha

Is this your proof?



I don't like wars and of course massacres but sometimes I say when we had the chance we should have destroyed your tiny piece of land with you so you wouldn't be future problem

I really wish my ancestors were genociders but apperantly(unfortunatelly) they weren't

I say in the end;
apperantly(unfortunatelly) they weren't

anyway it is so desperate of you that you found your proof in my words to label the entire nation as genociders

ahahahahhah :D:D

now seriously stop blabbering man bring my proof NOW!

[dimitris]

ahahahahahahahahahha

Is this your proof?




I say in the end;
apperantly(unfortunatelly) they weren't

anyway it is so desperate of you that you found your proof in my words to label the entire nation as genociders

ahahahahhah :D:D

now seriously stop blabbering man bring my proof NOW!


What Attila said:



I don't like wars and of course massacres but sometimes I say when we had the chance we should have destroyed your tiny piece of land with you so you wouldn't be future problem

I really wish my ancestors were genociders but apperantly(unfortunatelly) they weren't


And now Attila has even comfirmed that he actually wrote these words by saying this:



Yeah they are my words I didin't deny them so what it has to do with the actions of Ottoman Empire?

Well at least you are being honest now.I give you that.And then you asked from me that i will have to post real proof about the Armenian genocide when you wrote that you hope your ancestors were genociders.O.o

[Attila]

Well at least you are being honest now.I give you that.And then you asked from me that i will have to post real proof about the Armenian genocide when you wrote that you hope your ancestors were genociders.O.o


ahahaha I noticed that for the last 4-5 posts of you you were tuck on 1 of my posts as if I denied that I worte

only in the end of the page you finally get to understand that I didin't deny actually said nothing about what I wrote :D
I get a life but you get a randezvous from a psychologist you are seeing something that really doesn't exist there
sorry due

[dimitris]

ahahaha I noticed that for the last 4-5 posts of you you were tuck on 1 of my posts as if I denied that I worte

only in the end of the page you finally get to understand that I didin't deny actually said nothing about what I wrote :D
I get a life but you get a randezvous from a psychologist

What Attila said:



I don't like wars and of course massacres but sometimes I say when we had the chance we should have destroyed your tiny piece of land with you so you wouldn't be future problem

I really wish my ancestors were genociders but apperantly(unfortunatelly) they weren't


And now Attila has even comfirmed that he actually wrote these words by saying this:



Yeah they are my words I didin't deny them so what it has to do with the actions of Ottoman Empire?

Well at least you are being honest now.I give you that.And then you asked from me that i will have to post real proof about the Armenian genocide when you wrote that you hope your ancestors were genociders.O.o

[Attila]

I say
ahahahahahahahahahha

Is this your proof?





I don't like wars and of course massacres but sometimes I say when we had the chance we should have destroyed your tiny piece of land with you so you wouldn't be future problem

I really wish my ancestors were genociders but apperantly(unfortunatelly) they weren't

I say in the end;
apperantly(unfortunatelly) they weren't

anyway it is so desperate of you that you found your proof in my words to label the entire nation as genociders

ahahahahhah

now seriously stop blabbering man bring my proof NOW!

is this your new tactic to fill the page with balbbering so your Serbian Fellows real genocide attempt will stay behind the last page?

it is simple if there were a genocide and you can proove.
I am OK with that but if there is not I won't let you let my people call genociders
thats it

[dimitris]

I say
ahahahahahahahahahha

Is this your proof?




I really wish my ancestors were genociders but apperantly(unfortunatelly) they weren't

I say in the end;
apperantly(unfortunatelly) they weren't

anyway it is so desperate of you that you found your proof in my words to label the entire nation as genociders

ahahahahhah

now seriously stop blabbering man bring my proof NOW!

is this your new tactic to fill the page with balbbering so your Serbian Fellows real genocide attempt will stay behind the last page?

it is simple if there were a genocide and you can proove.
I am OK with that but if there is not I won't let you let my people call genociders
thats it

What Attila said:



I don't like wars and of course massacres but sometimes I say when we had the chance we should have destroyed your tiny piece of land with you so you wouldn't be future problem

I really wish my ancestors were genociders but apperantly(unfortunatelly) they weren't


And now Attila has even comfirmed that he actually wrote these words by saying this:



Yeah they are my words I didin't deny them so what it has to do with the actions of Ottoman Empire?

Well at least you are being honest now.I give you that.And then you asked from me that i will have to post real proof about the Armenian genocide when you wrote that you hope your ancestors were genociders.O.o

[Makeveli]

Thanks to the Turks Serbian people are alive today O.o

Bosnian Serbs Apologize for Srebrenica Massacre.
When did the Turks do that ???? plz ...

Source (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B07E4DA1E3CF932A25752 C1A9629C8B63)

Saying sorry and sincere regrets and apologies over the tragedy, takes guts to say ....

And the proof you are asking to is the like asking proof of the holocaust ... plz ...

:thumbdown

[Attila]

Yeah they are my words I didin't deny them so what it has to do with the actions of Ottoman Empire?

Why are you trying so hard to manipulate it?
is that because you don't have any proof to stand behind your emperialist lie?


You are really funny I enjoy your efforts by the way
when you say genocide it is something that you may easily proove and your proofs should be so obvious that nobody can deny.

Since you cannot bring such a proof now you start to attack my personality good job dude

ahahaha I noticed that for the last 4-5 posts of you you were stuck on 1 of my posts as if I denied that I worte

only in the end of the page you finally get to understand that I didin't deny actually said nothing about what I wrote
I get a life but you get a randezvous from a psychologist you are seeing something that really doesn't exist there
sorry for you dude

[dimitris]

Yeah they are my words I didin't deny them so what it has to do with the actions of Ottoman Empire?

Why are you trying so hard to manipulate it?
is that because you don't have any proof to stand behind your emperialist lie?


You are really funny I enjoy your efforts by the way
when you say genocide it is something that you may easily proove and your proofs should be so obvious that nobody can deny.

Since you cannot bring such a proof now you start to attack my personality good job dude

ahahaha I noticed that for the last 4-5 posts of you you were stuck on 1 of my posts as if I denied that I worte

only in the end of the page you finally get to understand that I didin't deny actually said nothing about what I wrote
I get a life but you get a randezvous from a psychologist you are seeing something that really doesn't exist there
sorry for you dude

There is a lot of independent eye witness testimony on this whole episode, as well as first hand evidence from people on the ground.


http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/2787/522pxambassadormorgenthto4.jpg

[Attila]

Thanks to the Turks Serbian people are alive today O.o

Bosnian Serbs Apologize for Srebrenica Massacre.
When did the Turks do that ???? plz ...

Source (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B07E4DA1E3CF932A25752 C1A9629C8B63)

Saying sorry and sincere regrets and apologies over the tragedy, takes guts to say ....

And the proof you are asking to is the like asking proof of the holocaust ... plz ...

:thumbdown
OF COURSE YOU WILL APOLOGIZE and Admit you have no chance left under these circumstances
what will would you call the mass gravs
plague?
If you can proove you claims as I can proove Serbian actions Than I will put full effort to the government through all channel necessary to apologize I guarntee you
I didin't say Serbians should be thakful but anyways

[Attila]

There is a lot of independent eye witness testimony on this whole episode, as well as first hand evidence from people on the ground.

hard proof like srebrinca

Testimonies doesn't count as hard proof if you recall
but I would put a testimony too

if you like from an armenian

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzXIwT3QBoA

[dimitris]

Testimonies doesn't count as hard proof if you recall
but I would put a testimony too

if you like from an armenian

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzXIwT3QBoA

The document i posted was written by Americas ambassador.And the first thing you do is to post a link about the ASALA which was an Armenian terrorist group which has jack shit to do with what we are talking about.Anyway, as Makaveli said:


And the proof you are asking to is the like asking proof of the holocaust ... plz ...

Nobody could had said it better.

[Attila]

Do you know what Asala for?

The guy is armenian in the video his story is about what asala for is an emperialist lie
it is more than a condemtion of the actions of ASALA
it is the condemtion of "why" ASALA is doing that.

proof of holocoust is very simple
write Auschwitz,Srebrenica on the Graphichs panel of the google than you will have your proofs

I have been telling you that it is an emperialist lie you are posting me a piece of paper (I don't even know that it is real) of the ambassdor of the CASTLE OF IMPERIALISM and State terror who didin't even recognize lausanne and has the strongest Armenian lobby

Well done "self prooving" :):) and I will post the Azeri documents then what a nonsense you make

[Attila]

And the proof you are asking to is the like asking proof of the holocaust ... plz ...


would you like to see the proof of the holocaust?

becareful with your wishes next time

http://children.foreignpolicyblogs.com/files/2007/07/srebrenica.jpg
You love that don't you fascist serbs

if you want us to be in your genocide club you should come up with something like that

[dimitris]

Do you know what Asala for?

The guy is armenian in the video his story is about what asala for is an emperialist lie
it is more than a condemtion of the actions of ASALA
it is the condemtion of "why" ASALA is doing that.

proof of holocoust is very simple
write Auschwitz,Srebrenica on the Graphichs panel of the google than you will have your proofs

I have been telling you that it is an emperialist lie you are posting me a piece of paper (I don't even know that it is real) of the ambassdor of the CASTLE OF IMPERIALISM and State terror who didin't even recognize lausanne and has the strongest Armenian lobby

Well done "self prooving" :):) and I will post the Azeri documents then what a nonsense you make

What Attila said:



I don't like wars and of course massacres but sometimes I say when we had the chance we should have destroyed your tiny piece of land with you so you wouldn't be future problem

I really wish my ancestors were genociders but apperantly(unfortunatelly) they weren't


And now Attila has even comfirmed that he actually wrote these words by saying this:



Yeah they are my words I didin't deny them so what it has to do with the actions of Ottoman Empire?

Well at least you are being honest now.I give you that.And then you asked from me that i will have to post real proof about the Armenian genocide when you wrote that you hope your ancestors were genociders.O.o

[dimitris]

would you like to see the proof of the holocaust?

becareful with your wishes next time

http://children.foreignpolicyblogs.com/files/2007/07/srebrenica.jpg
You love that don't you fascist serbs

if you want us to be in your genocide club you should come up with something like that

Not only do i love the Serbs.I see them as my brothers and sisters.

Now go and **** yourself and take that Azeri document you wanted to post and shove it on your ass.


What Attila said:



I don't like wars and of course massacres but sometimes I say when we had the chance we should have destroyed your tiny piece of land with you so you wouldn't be future problem

I really wish my ancestors were genociders but apperantly(unfortunatelly) they weren't


And now Attila has even comfirmed that he actually wrote these words by saying this:



Yeah they are my words I didin't deny them so what it has to do with the actions of Ottoman Empire?

Well at least you are being honest now.I give you that.And then you asked from me that i will have to post real proof about the Armenian genocide when you wrote that you hope your ancestors were genociders.O.o

[Attila]

will you stop trolling the forum each page I put a picture that is an hard proof of a genocide commited by your beloved ally you start trolling the forum

with something I said and never denied and explained why I said
You are trying to manipulate and and use the card stacking technique of black propaganda by attacking my personal view which has nothing to do with the so called event in 1915 or another claimed action of the Ottoman empire
I am not even Ottoman today :)
do you need a warning to stop trolling? you pasted it more than 6 times already and doesn't make sense
because as I told you my personal opinion doesn't mean the general view and it doesn't recreate the history :)

Desperate dimitris very desperate move

WOW you have started to swear now that is indeed a sign that you don't have enough tengibles to hold on :)
you need more than a warning but psychological treatment soon very soon
for your hypocracy, one sided beliefs, prejudice and hatred towards Turks affecting neutarality of your judgment

[dimitris]

will you stop trolling the forum each page I put a picture that is an hard proof of a genocide commited by your beloved ally you start trolling the forum

with something I said and never denied and explained why I said
You are trying to manipulate and and use the card stacking technique of black propaganda by attacking my personal view which has nothing to do with the so called event in 1915 or another claimed action of the Ottoman empire
I am not even Ottoman today :)
do you need a warning to stop trolling? you pasted it more than 6 times already and doesn't make sense
because as I told you my personal opinion doesn't mean the general view and it doesn't recreate the history :)

Desperate dimitris very desperate move

What Attila said:



I don't like wars and of course massacres but sometimes I say when we had the chance we should have destroyed your tiny piece of land with you so you wouldn't be future problem

I really wish my ancestors were genociders but apperantly(unfortunatelly) they weren't


And now Attila has even comfirmed that he actually wrote these words by saying this:



Yeah they are my words I didin't deny them so what it has to do with the actions of Ottoman Empire?

Well at least you are being honest now.I give you that.And then you asked from me that i will have to post real proof about the Armenian genocide when you wrote that you hope your ancestors were genociders.O.o

[Makeveli]

Thx dimitris

Attila,


Why don't you ask what proof the Americans have ;)

The Armenian Genocide is not a Hollywood movie you know.. You can lie to yourself as long as you like.. I don't care what you believe, i do care what the rest of the world believes and reconizes :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Armeniangenocide_deadpeople.jpg/400px-Armeniangenocide_deadpeople.jpg
Look those Turkish soldiers standing there proud, for killing Armenian civilians ....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/df/Morgen53.jpg/250px-Morgen53.jpg

The remaining bones of the Armenians of Erzinjan.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Armeniangenocidemap.gif
Major concentration camps

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Marcharmenians.jpg
Armenians are marched to a nearby prison in Mezireh by armed Turkish soldiers. Kharpert, Armenia, Ottoman Empire - April, 1915.


You should be ashamed of yourself Attila ....

[Attila]

Mak In this forum there is only 1 nation who really deserves to be tagged as genociders and butchers which is Serbians there is nothing debatable in that

but for Turkish issue I can clearly say;

The map is fake first of all there is no sign of a camp
it is recreated

I got plenty of pictures of Armenian attrocities which caused their deportation

http://www.tbmm.gov.tr/yayinlar/yayin3/arm111_150.pdf

I haven't seen any white uniform Turksih soldiers except navy wears + each one of them wearing Kalpaks on their heads which is more like russian uniforms given to Armenian bandits.

I agree with the last picture which is what I say in the begining. It is only a deportation or exile whatever you prefer to call

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/images/fotobu/a1_176.jpg

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/images/fotobu/e6_01.jpg

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/images/fotobu/fa1_59.jpg

The last one is from russians they gave to Armenian bandits coopareting with russians it is like a valor certificate

I am from Erzincan Kemaliye(EGIN) my Great Grandfather married to an Armenian during the eportation we witnessed what happened there

[dimitris]

Mak In this forum there is only 1 nation who really deserves to be tagged as genociders and butchers which is Serbians there is nothing debatable in that

but for Turkish issue I can clearly say;

The map is fake first of all there is no sign of a camp
it is recreated

I got plenty of pictures of Armenian attrocities which caused their deportation

http://www.tbmm.gov.tr/yayinlar/yayin3/arm111_150.pdf

I haven't seen any white uniform Turksih soldiers accept navy wears + each one of them wearing Kalpaks on their heads which is more like russian uniforms given to Armenian bandits.

I agree with the last picture which is what I say in the begining. It is only a deportation or exile whatever you prefer to call

What Attila said:



I don't like wars and of course massacres but sometimes I say when we had the chance we should have destroyed your tiny piece of land with you so you wouldn't be future problem

I really wish my ancestors were genociders but apperantly(unfortunatelly) they weren't


And now Attila has even comfirmed that he actually wrote these words by saying this:



Yeah they are my words I didin't deny them so what it has to do with the actions of Ottoman Empire?

Well at least you are being honest now.I give you that.And then you asked from me that i will have to post real proof about the Armenian genocide when you wrote that you hope your ancestors were genociders.O.o

[Attila]

again I put the pictures to proove and again Dimitris is trolling the forum for the 10th time

[dimitris]

again I put the pictures to proove and again Dimitris is trolling the forum for the 10th time

What Attila said:



I don't like wars and of course massacres but sometimes I say when we had the chance we should have destroyed your tiny piece of land with you so you wouldn't be future problem

I really wish my ancestors were genociders but apperantly(unfortunatelly) they weren't


And now Attila has even comfirmed that he actually wrote these words by saying this:



Yeah they are my words I didin't deny them so what it has to do with the actions of Ottoman Empire?

Well at least you are being honest now.I give you that.And then you asked from me that i will have to post real proof about the Armenian genocide when you wrote that you hope your ancestors were genociders.O.o

[Makeveli]

Mak In this forum there is only 1 nation who really deserves to be tagged as genociders and butchers which is Serbians there is nothing debatable in that

Where did i start a debate about Serbian genocide in this topic .. ??

Many nations have a "black page" in there history ...

The big difference is that B.Serbs apologized for it ....

You TURKS kill about 1.5 million Armenian Civilians and, make proud foto's with dead woman and childeren and then deny it ever happend ....

If Turks had any proud they would act like real man now, but your reaction and that of your government is exactly what i expected ....

Not only that i even believe you feel proud of what they did, because if you didn't you would at least not deny there crimes ...

Anyway doen't play smart guy with me, i have lived amoung Turks and Arabs from childhood. And i know what "proud" nation you guys like to see yourself ....

Even your Turkish government recent actions to block youtube demonstrated exactly what i mean .... You can put up a nice face but you can't hide you actions ....

:clap:

[Attila]

Where did i start a debate about Serbian genocide in this topic .. ??

Many nations have a "black page" in there history ...

The big difference is that B.Serbs apologized for it ....

You TURKS kill about 1.5 million Armenian Civilians and, make proud foto's with dead woman and childeren and then deny it ever happend ....



where are the 1.5 million bodies you killed 70.000 Bosnians and each one of them has pictured o course you cannot debate or lie
DON'T EVEN TRY
you are telling me to believe we have killed 1.5 million armenians but you have not even a single bone but Turkish ones!
Of course Turks will fight against the bandits in their territory
should we left them be and murder more civilians and pillage more towns?

There is the difference we have been too powerful to be seen as a victim but yes we were the victims
and we "deported" them successfully thats why there is not even a single armenian mass grave

I cannot believe that you said there were 1.5 million armenians murdered
You are professional at this you know you killed over 70.000 people and put them in massgraves could not even hide 70.000 people
where is the 1.5 million bodies? more than 15 times of what you really did but there is not even 1 proof looks like yours

[Attila]

Not only that i even believe you feel proud of what they did, because if you didn't you would at least not deny there crimes ...

Anyway doen't play smart guy with me, i have lived amoung Turks and Arabs from childhood. And i know what "proud" nation you guys like to see yourself ....

Even your Turkish government recent actions to block youtube demonstrated exactly what i mean .... You can put up a nice face but you can't hide you actions ....

:clap:
I didin't understand what arabs have to do with us?

and I didin't understand the connection between
blocking youtube for 2 days because of insulting Atatürk by a Greek

I know it was hard to live under occupiers for generations and it caused a kind of trauma
and you are trying to use this pact to get the revenge from us

Serbians you killed those muslims only to take revenge from us too. You thought you can destroy the last Turkish existance by killing the muslims in Bosnia
to get rid of that inferoirity complex
but it didin't work isn't it?

[Makeveli]

you are telling me to believe we have killed 1.5 million armenians but you have not even a single bone but Turkish ones!
Are you a drugs ? O.o




Of course Turks will fight against the bandits in their territory
Well you did a great job, about 1.5 million times, good for you ...




we "deported" them successfully thats why there is not even a single armenian mass grave
.....

[dimitris]

This is written by Thomas O'Dwyer and his article was published in an Israeli newspaper called Haaretz.Even Kemal Ataturk recognized the genocide against the christians:



Of course there is one Turk you can quote who still commands almost reverential respect from his fellow countryman - Kemal Ataturk, the legendary founder of the modern nation. In an interview published on August 1, 1926 in The Los Angeles Examiner, Ataturk talked about the former Young Turks in his country: "These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule." When we have the word of Ataturk himself, we don't need to be accused of "pandering to the views of the enemies and haters of Turks" as one Turkish diplomat once wrote to me for daring to question the lie.

source (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=291667&sw=)

[Attila]

It is still vague, a big mistery and slander by using Atatürk. This is a fake speech if he ever said something like that, it would be a well known fact

it doesn't matter even in Turkey there are lots of speeches written by someoneelse on the account of Atatürk.
so it still doesn't proove anything it even needs another proof that Atatürk said a such thing :)

Stroies and words over words doesn't seem logical some jews were unconfortable with the last events like Republic of Turkey condemned the actions of israel
thats why some jews switched sides and trying to give us the message if we don't support you look what is gonna happen

thats all :)
it is all about politics

[Attila]

Are you a drugs ? O.o



Well you did a great job, about 1.5 million times, good for you ...



.....

hey dude I know you want us in your genociders club so badly but it is not this case
may be another time
BTW I noticed that we got 1 Serbian 1 Greek and 1 Turk now all we need is 1 Bulgarian to recreate Balkan Wars :D:D
aaahh old fellas you will never change

[dimitris]

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5247/armintwagnertd6.jpg


Armin Theophil Wegner
Intellectual, doctor in law, photographer,
writer, poet, civil rights defender and
eyewitness to the Armenian Genocide


Armin T. Wegner was born on October 16, 1886 in the town of Elberfeld / Rhineland (Wuppertal) in Germany. At the outbreak of World War I, he enrolled as a volunteer nurse in Poland during the winter of 1914-1915, and was decorated with the Iron Cross for assisting the wounded under fire. In April 1915, following the military alliance of Germany and Turkey, he was sent to the Middle East as a member of the German Sanitary Corps. He used his leave to investigate the rumors about the Armenian massacres that had reached him from several sources. Disobeying orders intended to stifle news of the massacres, he gathered information on the Genocide - collected notes, annotations, documents, letters and took hundreds of photographs in the Armenian deportation camps - visible proof of the first systematic genocide of the twentieth century. At the request of the Turkish Command, Wegner was eventually arrested by the Germans and in December of the same year he was recalled to Germany. Hidden in his belt were his photographic emulsions with images of the Armenian Genocide .

In an open letter, which was submitted to American President Woodrow Wilson at the peace conference of 1919, Wegner protested against atrocities perpetrated by the Turkish army against the Armenian people, and appealed for the creation of an independent Armenian state. The tragedy of the Armenian people to which he had been eyewitness in Ottoman Turkey haunted him for the rest of his life. In the 1920s Wegner reached the height of his success as a writer. He became a celebrity with his Russian book, Five Fingers Over You, which foresaw the advent of Stalinism.

Wegner was also one of the earliest voices to protest Hitler's treatment of the Jews in Germany. He was the only writer in Nazi Germany ever to publicly protest against the persecution of the Jews. In 1933 he was arrested by Gestapo, a few weeks after he sent an open letter to Hitler protesting the state-organized boycott against the Jews of Germany. He would suffer incarceration in seven Nazi concentration camps and prisons before he could make his escape to Italy.

In 1956 Wegner was awarded the Highest Order of Merit by the Federal German government. The city of Wuppertal, where he was born, decorated him with the prestigious Eduard-Von-der-Heydt prize in 1962.

Armin T. Wegner dedicated a great part of his life to the fight for Armenian and Jewish human rights. In 1967 he was awarded the title “Righteous Among the Nations” by Yad Vashem in Israel, and in 1968 he received an invitation to Armenia from the Catholicos of All Armenians and was awarded with the Order of Saint Gregory the Illuminator. Furthermore, a main street in Yerevan was named after him in his honor.

He died in Rome at the age of 92 on May 17, 1978. In 1996 part of his Ashes were taken to Armenia, where a posthumous state funeral took place near the perpetual flame of the Armenian Genocide Monument.

In 2003 the Armin T. Wegner Award was created by the Arpa Foundation for Film, Music and Art in Hollywood, as a humanitarian honor, awarded to a motion picture that contributes to the fight for social conscience and human rights, a struggle to which Armin T. Wegner devoted his life.

source (http://armin-t-wegner.us/Biography.html)

[Attila]

himm very nice
where are those photographs then?
So there should be the exact locations of the mass graves of 1.5 million

where are they??
I repeat you cannot tag the entire nation as genociders with the word of X people
you need solid proof of that

[dimitris]

Photographs by Armin T. Wegner and Others


http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/858/pic1hu5.jpg

1915: Armenian deportees-women, children and elderly men. Woman in foreground is carrying a child
in her arms, shielding it from the sun with a shawl; man on left is carrying bedding; no other belongings
or food noticeable among effects being carried. All are walking in the sun on an unpaved road with no
means of shelter from the elements. Location: Ottoman empire, region Syria


http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7162/pic2py1.jpg

Scattered deportees in a desert wasteland, individually foraging for grain as their only
source of food. There is no shelter, water, or habitation in sight.


http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/4236/pic4gf3.jpg

Taken by Armin t. Wegner


http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/8734/pic5rt3.jpg


http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/2937/pic6ng7.jpg


http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9623/pic7qu1.jpg

Orphan Camp


http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/8814/pic8hi9.jpg

Orphan Camp 1915


http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6854/pic9uh0.jpg


http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/8569/pic10xb1.jpg

Camp in the Open Desert


source (http://www.teachgenocide.org/files/DocsMaps/Armin%20T%20Wegner%20Photos.pdf)

[dimitris]

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/7593/pic11bg9.jpg

Armenian Orphans at a Danish Orphanage


http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9349/pic12xn3.jpg

Armenian Orphans in a Danish Orphanage


http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/1476/pic13wy4.jpg

Emmaus, a German-Danish Orphanage in Mezre, near Harput, that gave refuge to hundreds
of Armenian girls in 1915 despite strict orders forbidding shelter to Armenians


source (http://www.teachgenocide.org/files/DocsMaps/Armin%20T%20Wegner%20Photos.pdf)

[Attila]

I have seen the video of this it is ok I believe they were driven out and I agree
but not the mass graves of 1.5 million
there is no sign of mass murdering

The war conditions was not only harsh for the people who were in the exile but the rest of state was suffering from famine and poverty

in that circumstances not even the soldiers had any medical treatment

I hate to say that the state didin't have much to offer not even it's own people

The same sight could easily be any random town of anatolia but I don't deny that pictures are armenians no
I said we shared more or less the same conditions

I don't want to tell you how my grandparents grown but trust me it wasn't much different than that

[dimitris]

The Turkish governments has done everything to cover up the genocide against the Armenians and other christian people.Here`s some examples where the historian David Gaunt of Södertörns University College in Sweden wanted to make some research on a massgrave in Turkey:




Gaunt expressed disappointment at a joint press conference following the grave opening. "My impression is that this grave is one in which no scientific research can be carried out. The grave has undergone numerous changes so it is not recognizable. Consequently, I have to say that this grave is not suitable for scientific research. As a result, we can say nothing but that this grave is not the one we intended to research." However, Gaunt added that this could be a start for joint research with Halaçoğlu in the future.

source (http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=109390&bolum=102)


The grave first came to light last October when villagers in the district of Nusaybın reported that they had found a mass grave near the village of Kuru.

source (http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=71759)


“I have some photos of the grave, dating back to October, when it was first found,” Gaunt told the Turkish Daily News yesterday. “But the place I saw was totally different from the photos."If proving that the grave is not evidence of Armenian claims, it should have had serious protection, he said. However, it is “full of mud.”“My impression is that this grave is one in which no scientific research can be carried out. The grave has undergone numerous changes so it is unrecognizable," he said.

source (http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=71759)

Of course, we can never know exactly if it was Armenians,Turks,Greeks,Assyrians or whatever but how come the massgrave was manipulated?And when the massgrave was found by the villagers why didn`t the Turkish authorites protected the massgrave so historians could have done research on the human remians and maybe found out to which race they belong to?

[Attila]

Of course, we can never know exactly if it was Armenians,Turks,Greeks,Assyrians or whatever but how come the massgrave was manipulated?And when the massgrave was found by the villagers why didn`t the Turkish authorites protected the massgrave so historians could have done research on the human remians and maybe found out to which race they belong to?

another question howcome the villagers didin't know the existence of a massgrave there before?

Today we can report the exact location if there is a team willing to conduct a research our government gives the full support
and I would like to be in there too for real

I hope if there is anything like that happened it wil come up and it will end this debate

if it is not armenians it is still a great discovery hunderds of nations lived and battled in this region

Our government called a joint historian and archeologist team to find out the truth together in Turkey and they will be authorized to do research in all libraries and regions of Turkey
Our (unfortunate) Priminister keep saying that at all conferences but I think his voice doesn't reach the people who concern

I repeat if such a crime was committed we owe an appology and try to gain the trust and friendship of Armenians who are our neighbours even some privilages should be given to those who are Turkish citizens

But still there is no evidence you can bring me except papers
I still cannot figure out where to hide 1.5 million bodies you know it is more than 3 football stadiums

anyway I will be still proud to be Turkish and agree with you if you come up with such an evidence that logic requires.

I would like to ask this now if we are done with the topic so what will happen for the murdered Turkish villagers? who is gonna pay for that? I got similar pictures we got even the graves of Turks
burned mosques etc. What will happen for them? is it not genocide? ethnic cleansing?

[dimitris]

another question howcome the villagers didin't know the existence of a massgrave there before?

Today we can report the exact location if there is a team willing to conduct a research our government gives the full support
and I would like to be in there too for real

I hope if there is anything like that happened it wil come up and it will end this debate

if it is not armenians it is still a great discovery hunderds of nations lived and battled in this region

Our government called a joint historian and archeologist team to find out the truth together in Turkey and they will be authorized to do research in all libraries and regions of Turkey
Our (unfortunate) Priminister keep saying that at all conferences but I think his voice doesn't reach the people who concern

I repeat if such a crime was committed we owe an appology and try to gain the trust and friendship of Armenians who are our neighbours even some privilages should be given to those who are Turkish citizens

But still there is no evidence you can bring me except papers
I still cannot figure out where to hide 1.5 million bodies you know it is more than 3 football stadiums

anyway I will be still proud to be Turkish and agree with you if you come up with such an evidence that logic requires.

I would like to ask this now if we are done with the topic so what will happen for the murdered Turkish villagers? who is gonna pay for that? I got similar pictures we got even the graves of Turks
burned mosques etc. What will happen for them? is it not genocide? ethnic cleansing?


another question howcome the villagers didin't know the existence of a massgrave there before?Today we can report the exact location if there is a team willing to conduct a research our government gives the full support
and I would like to be in there too for real

I hope if there is anything like that happened it wil come up and it will end this debate

if it is not armenians it is still a great discovery hunderds of nations lived and battled in this region

So you expect that all the villagers in Turkey should know where all the massgraves are?In the case that i posted about the massgrave that was found in October last year the Turkish authorities had 6 months to protect the massgrave before the historian from Sweden came to make some research on the massgrave but was not abled to do it because someone had obviously manipulated the massgrave.



Our government called a joint historian and archeologist team to find out the truth together in Turkey and they will be authorized to do research in all libraries and regions of Turkey
Our (unfortunate) Priminister keep saying that at all conferences but I think his voice doesn't reach the people who concern

I think you are referring to the joint commission between Armenian and Turkish historians that had been proposed by Erdogan.But how would the Israelis reacted if Germany continued denying the holocaust but was willing to create a joint commission with Israeli and German historians to try to find out if there actually was a holocaust or not and at the same time there were comming reports that the Germans didn`t protect massgraves and had the risk for being manipulated?


I repeat if such a crime was committed we owe an appology and try to gain the trust and friendship of Armenians who are our neighbours even some privilages should be given to those who are Turkish citizens

Agreed.That would be a good start.But now comes the sad part and let me quote you:


But still there is no evidence you can bring me except papers
I still cannot figure out where to hide 1.5 million bodies you know it is more than 3 football stadiums

The problem is that you don`t want to understand that the Turkish govenrments has done everything to cover up the genocides against the Armenians and other christian people.Just look at the example that i posted about the manipulated massgrave.And what i have understood is that the Turkish governemnt is saying and let me quote:


Turkish Government and majority of Turkish people accept Armenian killings. Even some Turkish historians accept that the number of killed Armenians was about 300,000.According to Turkish archive documents about 900.000 Armenians were forced to immigrate to another province of the Empire and about 200-300.000 Armenians were killed or died due to the natural reasons (bad whether, epidemic, famine and other war reasons).

source (http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:dvlrEuwdKk4J:www.turkishw eekly.net/letters.php+turkish+government+says+300. 000+armenians+died&hl=sv&ct=clnk&cd=5)


Shall I demand now from the Turkish government that they will show me all the massgraves of all these 300.000 Armenians that was killed?

The point that I`m trying to make here is that you could kill 8000 people as happened in Srebrenica and call it genocide and you could kill 30.000 people and not label it as genocide.It doesn`t has to do with how many you kill.It`s not always very easy to define a genocide but it has nothing to do with how many people you kill.As I said before, just the intention to commit a genocide could be labeled as genocide without one man being killed.I posted the "Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide" in the beginning in this thread.I hope you read it.


anyway I will be still proud to be Turkish and agree with you if you come up with such an evidence that logic requires.

Of course you should.As i said before, the Armenian genocide resolution in US congress doesn`t blame modern Turkey for the Armenian genocide but rather the Ottoman empire.


I would like to ask this now if we are done with the topic so what will happen for the murdered Turkish villagers? who is gonna pay for that? I got similar pictures we got even the graves of Turks
burned mosques etc. What will happen for them? is it not genocide? ethnic cleansing?

Let me quote myself what i said before:


Let me put it like this: All countries has more or less dark chapters in their history.Whether it is Greece,France,Armenia,Spain....All countries has to recognize their wrongdoings whether they have committed massacres or genocides.And if you read in one of my posts i wrote that the schoolbooks in Greece mentions about the massacre committed by the Greeks against the Turks in Tripolitsa 1821.

My question is to you: Has Turkey recognized officially that christians has committed genocides against the Turks?And does Turkey have a special day every year where you remember the genocide against the Turks?And lastly, does Turkey demand money for all the Turks that was killed?

[Balozi]

Our government called a joint historian and archeologist team to find out the truth together in Turkey and they will be authorized to do research in all libraries and regions of Turkey
so what's the chance of them saying it was a genocide and turkey accepting it?

[Attila]

so what's the chance of them saying it was a genocide and turkey accepting it?


if something like Auschwitz or Srebrenica discovered
denying would be stupid Our people wouldn't deny it I am 100% sure
Because this claim is really horrible and If something like that happened no matter who did it responsibles or the successors of responsibles (I mean us) should be punished for sure!

But still there is no proof than papers
it is 1.5 million people very hard to believe without tengibles

[Balozi]

lol dude that was like 200 years ago finding proof isnt that easy. and especially if people died little by little...

[Alalzia]

Talking about Auswitch , have you read red cross reposts about the conditions in the concentration camps? They say that the nazis did anything possible to keep captives alive and in good condition ...this wasn't back in 1915 and still everything looks confusing .

If i read that well there is a Turkish committee investigating ?

:surrender

[Attila]

lol dude that was like 200 years ago finding proof isnt that easy. and especially if people died little by little...

bones and graves could be found
but if as you say people died little by little due to poor conditions like we suffered as a whole country
so it doesn't make it mass murder

anyway give me hard proof I will make everyone believe
around me
that is the justice

[Attila]

Talking about Auswitch , have you read red cross reposts about the conditions in the concentration camps?

himmm then the National geographic + discovery channel + history channel and the people who were prisoners are full of lies

[Alalzia]

himmm then the National geographic + discovery channel + history channel and the people who were prisoners are full of lies

I think you completely lost the meaning of my post.
I will help you out, it was : even the most obvious things can always be disputed .

[Attila]

So you expect that all the villagers in Turkey should know where all the massgraves are?In the case that i posted about the massgrave that was found in October last year the Turkish authorities had 6 months to protect the massgrave before the historian from Sweden came to make some research on the massgrave but was not abled to do it because someone had obviously manipulated the massgrave.?

I am not sure if you are familiar with the village life but be sure that if something is going on around that village
you cannot stop the rumours in the village
Those people would know what to find in the exact location





I think you are referring to the joint commission between Armenian and Turkish historians that had been proposed by Erdogan.But how would the Israelis reacted if Germany continued denying the holocaust but was willing to create a joint commission with Israeli and German historians to try to find out if there actually was a holocaust or not and at the same time there were comming reports that the Germans didn`t protect massgraves and had the risk for being manipulated?


The difference is there are so much evidence for German crimes so they cannot deny?
Wouldn't you ask for an evidence if somebody throw this much mud to your nation and insist on it without a tengible proof?




The problem is that you don`t want to understand that the Turkish govenrments has done everything to cover up the genocides against the Armenians and other christian people.Just look at the example that i posted about the manipulated massgrave.And what i have understood is that the Turkish governemnt is saying and let me quote:



Shall I demand now from the Turkish government that they will show me all the massgraves of all these 300.000 Armenians that was killed?

I am not aware of such recognition from Turkey I need to see that in a national TV channel or Newspaper
may be the goverment website
but there is nothing I found there sorry.

I can still explain the 300.000 killed armenians
They must be the organized bandits that I am talking about. I use the term bandit to describe them however they had nothing different than an organized army since they even have cannons

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/images/fotobu/a1_177.jpg

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/images/fotobu/a1_51.jpg

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/images/fotobu/a1_42.jpg

and one of their actions in izmit (nicaea or nicomedia in your language I guess)

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/images/fotobu/a1_57.jpg
soldiers were putting them into "kefens"(is a relegious thing we don't place corps in coffins but the white sheets) before burying them

The names of the victims
1- Bosniak Malik 2- Abdulmecid son Ali 3- Ali son Seyid (14 years old) 4- Ömer son Abdulgani 5- Abdulgani son Mecid 6- Abdullah son Hüseyin 7- Bekir son Yusuf 8- Osman son İsmail


I got more pictures of ammuniton captured from the bandits believe it makes thousands per picture already



The point that I`m trying to make here is that you could kill 8000 people as happened in Srebrenica and call it genocide and you could kill 30.000 people and not label it as genocide.It doesn`t has to do with how many you kill.It`s not always very easy to define a genocide but it has nothing to do with how many people you kill.As I said before, just the intention to commit a genocide could be labeled as genocide without one man being killed.I posted the "Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide" in the beginning in this thread.I hope you read it.

I read it and I agree with you on that point



Of course you should.As i said before, the Armenian genocide resolution in US congress doesn`t blame modern Turkey for the Armenian genocide but rather the Ottoman empire.

We are known as the successors of the ottoman empire




My question is to you: Has Turkey recognized officially that christians has committed genocides against the Turks?And does Turkey have a special day every year where you remember the genocide against the Turks?And lastly, does Turkey demand money for all the Turks that was killed?

My answer is yes in Cyprus
and my proposal is this bring me as much as tengible proof as I can bring for Cyprus what Greeks did how they destroyed the entire town if you like we can arrange a trip to Cyprus one day just to show each other what we got.
Then you will fight for the rights of Turkish Cypriots I will fight for the rights of Armenians
Deal?

They even build a state there forget about recognition the crimes of Greeks
Greeks cannot even step in their lands now
but you are still backing up the GC's
I know it is only because they are Greek and We are Turks
anyway
We got more evidence in Cyprus than you can show us about armenian genocide
The difference is Turkey didin't let it reach to that level but their intention was the same with nazi's in Cyprus
so you can put them in your genociders club easily

+ My intention here is really know what it happened back then and find the truth and justice even if it means the conviction of my enitre nation
I said it before I don't mind what you call us if you can bring me the proof I ask
I want it to end as soon as possible nomatter the result and consequences
BUT!
Your only intention is to convict Turks and find us punish us for what happened in the last millenium :)
You are not after the truth you are after Turks

[dimitris]

I am not sure if you are familiar with the village life but be sure that if something is going on around that village
you cannot stop the rumours in the village
Those people would know what to find in the exact location





The difference is there are so much evidence for German crimes so they cannot deny?
Wouldn't you ask for an evidence if somebody throw this much mud to your nation and insist on it without a tengible proof?



I am not aware of such recognition from Turkey I need to see that in a national TV channel or Newspaper
may be the goverment website
but there is nothing I found there sorry.

I can still explain the 300.000 killed armenians
They must be the organized bandits that I am talking about. I use the term bandit to describe them however they had nothing different than an organized army since they even have cannons

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/images/fotobu/a1_177.jpg

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/images/fotobu/a1_51.jpg

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/images/fotobu/a1_42.jpg

and one of their actions in izmit (nicaea or nicomedia in your language I guess)

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/images/fotobu/a1_57.jpg
soldiers were putting them into "kefens"(is a relegious thing we don't place corps in coffins but the white sheets) before burying them

The names of the victims
1- Bosniak Malik 2- Abdulmecid son Ali 3- Ali son Seyid (14 years old) 4- Ömer son Abdulgani 5- Abdulgani son Mecid 6- Abdullah son Hüseyin 7- Bekir son Yusuf 8- Osman son İsmail


I got more pictures of ammuniton captured from the bandits believe it makes thousands per picture already


I read it and I agree with you on that point


We are known as the successors of the ottoman empire




My answer is yes in Cyprus
and my proposal is this bring me as much as tengible proof as I can bring for Cyprus what Greeks did how they destroyed the entire town if you like we can arrange a trip to Cyprus one day just to show each other what we got.
Then you will fight for the rights of Turkish Cypriots I will fight for the rights of Armenians
Deal?

They even build a state there forget about recognition the crimes of Greeks
Greeks cannot even step in their lands now
but you are still backing up the GC's
I know it is only because they are Greek and We are Turks
anyway
We got more evidence in Cyprus than you can show us about armenian genocide
The difference is Turkey didin't let it reach to that level but their intention was the same with nazi's in Cyprus
so you can put them in your genociders club easily

+ My intention here is really know what it happened back then and find the truth and justice even if it means the conviction of my enitre nation
I said it before I don't mind what you call us if you can bring me the proof I ask
I want it to end as soon as possible nomatter the result and consequences
BUT!
Your only intention is to convict Turks and find us punish us for what happened in the last millenium :)
You are not after the truth you are after Turks


I am not sure if you are familiar with the village life but be sure that if something is going on around that village
you cannot stop the rumours in the village
Those people would know what to find in the exact location

Ok, let us assume what you say is true.Why didn`t the Turkish authorities protect the massgrave?They had 6 months before the historian from Sweden would come to Turkey and take samples from the massgrave.Why was the massgrave manipulated to an extent that the historian couldn`t make any research on the massgrave?


The difference is there are so much evidence for German crimes so they cannot deny?
Wouldn't you ask for an evidence if somebody throw this much mud to your nation and insist on it without a tengible proof?

Now that you talk about "mudd", the problem is that when the historian from Sweden came to Turkey to take sample from the massgrave, he discovered that the massgrave was full of mudd which wasn`t the case when he saw the first photos that was taken from the new discovered massgrave in October last year.It is obvious that someone is trying to hide something here.Why didn`t the Turkish authorites protect the massgrave in the first place?The Turkish authorites had 6 months to do that.

Can`t you see that this incident brings Turkey in a bad light?And let us not also forget that article 301 has silenced people to talk about the Armenian genocide in Turkey because you could be prosecuted and even jailed for recognizing the Armenian genocide.Could this be a reason why villagers are afraid of pointing out the locations of the massgraves in Turkey for fear of being prosecuted or even jailed?Only those who are brave will do it i guess...But i still find it hard to believe that all villagers will know where all the massgraves are.The Armenians and other christian people were forced to walk death marches in deserts without food,shelter,medicines...and many of them died on the way to Syria.And then we haven`t talked about the labour camps that many christians was forced to and had to work under very hard conditions which led to that many died in these labour camps.


I am not aware of such recognition from Turkey I need to see that in a national TV channel or Newspaper
may be the goverment website
but there is nothing I found there sorry.

I can still explain the 300.000 killed armenians
They must be the organized bandits that I am talking about. I use the term bandit to describe them however they had nothing different than an organized army since they even have cannons

Let me quote what Semih IDIZ wrote on Turkish Daily News, Thursday, May 5, 2005:


Let no one mistake it, 1915 was a year of tragedy for the Armenian people. As for the 'numbers game,' this is irrelevant. The Armenians say 1.5 million died. Turks acknowledge that anything up to 600,000 Armenians died during the forced expulsions that started in May 1915.But what difference does it make when you are talking about hundreds of thousands of innocent people who lost their lives in brutal circumstances..

source (http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=12485)



and one of their actions in izmit (nicaea or nicomedia in your language I guess)


soldiers were putting them into "kefens"(is a relegious thing we don't place corps in coffins but the white sheets) before burying them

The names of the victims
1- Bosniak Malik 2- Abdulmecid son Ali 3- Ali son Seyid (14 years old) 4- Ömer son Abdulgani 5- Abdulgani son Mecid 6- Abdullah son Hüseyin 7- Bekir son Yusuf 8- Osman son İsmail


I got more pictures of ammuniton captured from the bandits believe it makes thousands per picture already

Sorry Attila, but these pics were taken from a Turkish site which i don`t think is objective or credible on this issue.What if i started to post pics of dead christians or Turkish gangs by using Greek,Cypriot,Assyrian and Armenian sources?I don`t think you would had accepted that.Having said that, i don`t deny that there were Armenian gangs but let`s not forget all the Armenian civilians that had to pay a high price because some Armenians rebelled against the Turks.There are other reasons too of course...


We are known as the successors of the ottoman empire

So was the Germans of the Third Reich.But Germany has taken its responsibility to recognize the holocaust.


My answer is yes in Cyprus
and my proposal is this bring me as much as tengible proof as I can bring for Cyprus what Greeks did how they destroyed the entire town if you like we can arrange a trip to Cyprus one day just to show each other what we got.
Then you will fight for the rights of Turkish Cypriots I will fight for the rights of Armenians
Deal?

No thanks.Especially when you wished that your ancestors were genociders.


They even build a state there forget about recognition the crimes of Greeks
Greeks cannot even step in their lands now
but you are still backing up the GC's
I know it is only because they are Greek and We are Turks
anyway

Well, if Turkey thinks they can join the EU by occupying an EU country(Cyprus) then i wish you good luck.:roll:


We got more evidence in Cyprus than you can show us about armenian genocide
The difference is Turkey didin't let it reach to that level but their intention was the same with nazi's in Cyprus
so you can put them in your genociders club easily

And how many countries has recognized the so-called genocide against the Turkish Cypriots?And is there an international consensus among historians from all around the world that a genocide has been committed against the Turkish Cypriots?


+ My intention here is really know what it happened back then and find the truth and justice even if it means the conviction of my enitre nation
I said it before I don't mind what you call us if you can bring me the proof I ask
I want it to end as soon as possible nomatter the result and consequences
BUT!
Your only intention is to convict Turks and find us punish us for what happened in the last millenium
You are not after the truth you are after Turks

Oh oh, i smell the paranoia again.Why don`t you pick up a gun if you feel that we are after Turks and start chasing christians.O.o

[dimitris]

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/8035/armeniangenocideyh0.jpg

source (http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Images/Chicago/hewsen224.html)

Here`s an interesting map which shows where the Armenians were deported.You could also see that the deportations went to Syria,Iraq and even to the Black Sea.

Credit goes to Makaveli who posted this map before but i thought i post it again because this map is larger and more easier to see the details.

[dimitris]

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/8237/armeniangenocide2cw8.jpg

source (http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Images/Chicago/hewsen233.html)

As you can see, there were not many Armenians left in Turkey after the deportations.

[dimitris]

From the Chairman of the Baghdad Railway in Constantinople Franz Johannes Guenther to the Legation Councillor of the German Embassy in Constantinople Neurath

Correspondence



Constantinople, 21 August 1915
Dear Mr. von Neurath,

For obvious reasons I do not wish to convey the enclosed report to you through official channels, but simply as a private person and for your own personal information.

With best regards,


Yours faithfully,
Guenther

[Note Mordtmann, 24 August]

Have noted. I am adding a detailed record containing the latest reports by Messrs. Zabel and von Hollbach.


Enclosure 1


Konia, 16 August 1915
The undersigned German nationals, at present residing in Konia, would herewith like to present the following report to the Imperial German Embassy.

For the past week we have been witnesses of the most moving scenes, which anyone not coming into close contact with them can hardly imagine. Every day long trains of Armenians arrive here, who according to their accounts, have been deported from Ismid, Adapazar and the surrounding areas.

From some of those passing through we have learned that the deportation regulations have already been enforced for many months in Cilicia and North Mesopotamia and as we hear, also other places in Anatolia are being cleared of the Armenians. Today the local Armenians also received the order to leave the town within eight days.

Naturally, it is not up to us to complain about the measures taken by the authorities. We are also aware that there are some guilty ones among the Armenians. What we wish to achieve with our report is only to express our objection to the way in which these deportees are being treated, which runs completely counter to any form of humanity.

Women and children are being driven along with blows of the fists and with sticks. They are being chased out into the night on open carts and Tatar carriages, and those without money have to continue the difficult journey on foot carrying the remainder of their possessions.

Those who are even without the bare necessities have to sell off their few belongings, but these are often torn from them by force and stolen.

How great is the despair of mothers who have to give away their children in order to spare them the most wretched fate.

Children who have been taken in by compassionate Christian families are later taken away from them by the authorities and given to the Turks.

Help from our side is not favoured. This reminds us of an occurrence in April of this year, where the assistance of the local American mission given to approx. 3,000 Armenians expelled from Zeitun was forbidden; on the other hand, no objection was raised from any side when, during the Balkan turmoils, beds and linen worth more than 500 Ltq. were distributed from Eskishehir to Eregli among the Muslim emigrants.

The whole of the route from here to beyond Aleppo resembles a caravan of misery and wretchedness. In places such as Karaman, Eregli and Bozanti, where the people themselves are suffering from a shortage of bread, the fate of the deportees is unimaginable; they are destined to suffer a slow, agonising death by starvation. For your information we would like to mention that in Bozanti, despite a price of 8 piasters for an oka [just over 2 pounds] of bread, there is none available at all.

In the mountainous areas on this side and in the plain on the other side of the Taurus, these poor people are subjected to the most disgraceful lustful desires of the half-wild Muslim population.

The whole measure seems to be aimed at a complete extermination of the Armenians.

This inhumane treatment constitutes a disgrace, which is indelible in world history, not only for the Turks, but also for us Germans as their current allies and advisors, if we continue to stand back and allow the destruction of this people. Apart from this, this procedure is highly deplorable in the interest of the economic position of the country, and German enterprises will also be affected when this industrious people is destroyed.

If the undersigned take the liberty of conveying a report about these circumstances to the Imperial Embassy, then they are doing so under the assumption that these facts are not known in full to the Imperial German Embassy.

We Germans, who are forced daily to observe this inhumane activity, feel it is our duty as members of a cultural state in the midst of a half-civilised people, to protest against it.

In expectation that our petition will be considered to such an extent that at least the fate of many thousands of innocent women and children is relieved, we remain,


Yours faithfully,

Willy Seeger, Chairman of the Anatolian Industrial and Trading Company Ltd., Konia branch. Georg Biegel, secondary school teacher. Heinrich Janson, foreman. J. E. Maurer, qualified engineer.

source (http://www.armenocide.de/armenocide/armgende.nsf/$$AllDocsTrans/1915-08-21-DE-011?OpenDocument)

[dimitris]

Enclosure 2
[Record Mordtmann, 24 August]


I) On his journey from Mesopotamia to here, Mr. Rudolf Zabel from the newspaper Tägliche Rundschau, who visited me on 20th inst., observed the train of Armenian emigrants as far as Konia and even further.
He was in possession of a copy of the objection raised by the Germans from Konia.

He describes the way in which the deportation is carried out, beginning in the west, as follows:

The transports are first directed to Konia, where there is a fairly large concentration camp; those who cannot buy a rail ticket have to go on foot.

In Konia most of them sell their belongings, but are only allowed to sell to Turks.

The wealthier deposited their cash with the Banque Ottomane; this was later prohibited and the deposits were confiscated by the authorities; this is what happened to a rich Saracen from Ismid, amongst others.

The property owned by Armenians is registered by the Armenian Bishop of Ismid; the register is in the hands of the engineer Maurer, who will later be passing it on to here.

More recently, the Protestant and Catholic Armenians are being spared; the Armenians who have been deported from Ismid and the surrounding areas are at present in Eskishehir, and are supposed to be heading for Kintakia, where the Armenians have been expelled.

The accommodation and food-supply for the deportees is bad. There is a high death rate.

In Eregli there is a large camp (approx. 3,000 people); it appears that those who have travelled by train are accommodated there, as the people still had a lot of belongings with them; there is also a high death rate in this camp.

In E. five railway trains arrive each day, each with 1,000 – 1,500 Armenians; Mr. Zabel has seen 8,000 moving along on foot.

Ulukirkhla is one of the worst stations. The camp there was formerly occupied by labour battalions, is infested with refuse, insects, etc. The conditions for the deportees there is very wretched.

Beyond Ulukirkhla there is no more transport by train. The deportees are herded on in individual groups like cattle.

It is there that the attacks by robbers begin; Mr. Z. had proven news of such an attack. 15 Armenians were killed or wounded during the ambush.

In Bozanti, the next station, there is neither accommodation nor bread; from there it is another 10 kms without a break to a refugee camp along the military supply and communication route.

Beyond Bozanti there are no longer any strong men to be seen among the deportees. There are only a few carts for those with money, as all available vehicles have been requisitioned by the military.

In Adana the emigrants arrive completely exhausted.

The military route Adana - Osmania - Hamidé is now only passed along on foot; the camps (in the open air) are in a terrible condition. Beyond Aleppo there are also no longer any marriageable girls among the deportees.

Lieutenant Colonel Klinckhardt was offered 2 girls by Turkish officers in Ratulem. [This sentence was deleted.]

In Kubla there is another large camp where, amongst others, the Armenians from Dört Yöl are accommodated.

Of the other things that Mr. Z. has observed, it should be mentioned that Azmi Bey, who was posted to Beirut, gave the order to destroy the bell-tower of the Armenian Protestant Church, which is also frequented by German Protestants, shortly before his departure from Konia. Despite an urgent plea from the German side, the order was carried out.

Mr. Zabel gives the impression of being a sober, impartial observer; he has collected plenty of material, including a series of photographs and films.

His judgement on the behaviour of the Turkish authorities in the interior of the country was devastating; among other things he said:

he had travelled in many countries in disquieting times - while war and revolution dominated the country - but he had never seen any anarchy of this kind anywhere at all.


II On 23rd inst., Mr. von Holbach (Regie official, has been in Turkey for many years) visited me; he was last in Adana and came here almost simultaneously with Zabel.

His accounts of the suffering of the deportees coincide with the reports of Mr. Zabel.

I would like to emphasise a few of his details:

Those transported by train are being crowded, at present 50 to 60 at a time, into cattle trucks which can otherwise hardly hold 40.

In Konia and Adana there have been many conversions to Islam; many Armenians are already selling their children in Konia.

The trade in Adana will be badly damaged by the persecution of the Armenians. The whole of the bazaar in Adana is Armenian. The cotton cultivation is also almost exclusively in Armenians hands; trade with this commodity in Greek hands.

Hakki Bey (General Staff Officer), Vali of Adana, tried at the beginning to protect the Armenians, but was then ordered to Constantinople, and since his return has been relentlessly against the Armenians.

Mr. von Hollbach closed his report with the words:

He has always been completely sympathetic with the Turks; but after all he had seen with his own eyes, he had been totally rid of his sympathies for the Turks.

For now he would keep his silence, but at the right moment he would bring everything into the newspapers.



[Notes Mordtmann, 24 August]


Willy Seeger in Konia, 19 August to Mr. Guenther: (excerpt)

1) The preparation period for their deportation granted to the Armenians has been reduced from 8 to 6 days; on the 21st 2,000 persons are to be expelled. ...
2) The Armenian Bishop is asking me to send a message to His Majesty the Emperor, saying that all Gregorian Armenians wish to become Protestants and are requesting the protection of the Emperor. ...

3) There is a rumour going around that due to the intervention of His Majesty Franz Joseph, the Catholics are being exempted from deportation. ...

4) There is the greatest despair among the Armenians. Policemen are even taking the liberty of infringing on them. Their possessions are being sold off at ridiculous prices and all kinds of obstacles are being put in the way of these poor people while their belongings are being sold. ...

5) As notified, approx. 25 Armenians have declared their willingness to become Muslims.

6) As I already wrote, the order even applies to my employees.


is asking the Embassy to undertake steps on behalf of the persecuted.


[Note by Mordtmann, 24 August]

With regard to the Catholics and the Protestants, Talaat Bey repeated his earlier assurances to me yesterday; I especially mentioned item 6); with regard to this, Talaat B. remarked that he had already spoken to H. Guenther about the matter. The railway officials will remain, but are to be gradually replaced.

source (http://www.armenocide.de/armenocide/armgende.nsf/$$AllDocsTrans/1915-08-21-DE-011?OpenDocument)

[dimitris]

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/photo/102007/m85898.jpg
Eric Edelman, U.S. undersecretary of defense, is sent to Ankara for talks with the government.


Turkey loses Jewish vote


Monday, October 15, 2007

Turkey fails to secure the support of Jewish members in the committee that gives the U.S. House the go ahead to vote on a resolution to recognize the events of 1915 as ‘genocide.

UMIT ENGINSOY
WASHINGTON - Turkish Daily News


Last week's congressional panel vote in favor of an "Armenian genocide" resolution has also underlined Turkey's failure to win the backing of the committee's Jewish members despite Ankara's focused efforts to woo those lawmakers and Israel.

Seven out of eight Jewish lawmakers in the 50-member Foreign Affairs Committee of the U.S. House of Representatives, including Tom Lantos, the panel's powerful chairman and the only Holocaust survivor in Congress, voted in favor of the genocide bill in last Wednesday's mark-up. The resolution calls for recognition of World War-I era Armenian killings in the Ottoman Empire as genocide.

Democratic House Speaker Nancy Pelosi announced late last week that she will bring the measure to a House floor vote before Congress' current session ends on Thanksgiving Day, which is Nov. 22 this year. In such a vote the resolution is expected to pass easily, as it already has 226 cosponsors in the 435-member House.

All eight Jewish representatives in the committee were Democrats, most of whom are involved in a major confrontation with the Republican administration over President George W. Bush's foreign policy.

Among them, the only one to vote against the resolution was Robert Wexler of Florida, cochairman of the Turkish Caucus in Congress.

Overall, the measure passed the committee 27-21 – 19 Democrats and eight Republicans in favor, and eight Democrats and 13 Republicans opposed – despite last-minute warnings from Bush and his top aides that the resolution would harm U.S. national interests.


The Lantos factor

Top Bush administration officials and Turkish leaders warn that Ankara may cut its assistance to the United States' efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan in the event the resolution passes on the House floor.

In addition to Lantos, a representative from California, Gary Ackerman and Eliot Engel of New York, Howard Berman and Brad Sherman of California, Ron Klein of Florida and Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona voted for the bill among the Jewish Congress members.

For the Turks, the biggest dismay was Lantos' vote. In a long introduction at the opening of the mark-up, Lantos said: "We have to weigh the desire to express our solidarity with the Armenian people and to condemn the historic nightmare through the use of the word 'genocide,' against the risk that it could cause young men and women in the uniform of the United States armed services to pay an even heavier price [in Iraq and Afghanistan] than they are currently paying."

And when Lantos announced his vote, Turkish parliamentary deputies and diplomats present at the mark-up were shocked and angered.

This was the third time the same panel approved a genocide bill in the past seven years. But in 2000, former president Bill Clinton personally intervened at the last minute and prevented a House floor vote. And in 2005, the bill passed by the committee reached nowhere as then House speaker Dennis Hastert, a close ally of Bush, refused to bring it to the floor.

Lantos was the staunchest supporter of Turkey in the 2000 discussions of the genocide resolution. But in 2005, angered by the Turkish government's rapprochement with Syria and Iran, he voted for the bill "to punish Ankara" although he admitted that the Armenian killings did not amount to a genocide.


Jewish lawmakers unimpressed by Turkish lobbying

Egemen Bağıs, a top foreign policy adviser to Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and a deputy from the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP), criticized Lantos' stance, saying, "we have seen that his understanding of history is changing in time."

Despite the color of their votes, Lantos and Ackerman also sought to appease Turkey. Lantos said that he would soon introduce a resolution marking the U.S.-Turkish friendship. Ackerman said: "This has been tough for me... I'm a big fan and supporter of Turkey."

Turkish diplomats had made a major effort to urge the committee's Jewish members to vote against the resolution. Turkey also lobbied Israel, with Foreign Minister Ali Babacan recently visiting Yad Vashem, or the Holocaust museum.

After the Anti-Defamation League, a leading U.S. Jewish group, shifted its position on the controversy in August, recognizing last century's Armenian killings as "tantamount to genocide," Turkey said the resolution's eventual approval on the House floor could adversely affect its close relations with Israel.

But the panel vote proved that Ankara's warning did not impress the committee's Jewish members.

Among them, Sherman, Ackerman, Berman and Engel have consistently voted for genocide resolutions over the past seven years, while Wexler has consistently opposed the measures. Klein and Giffords, two junior lawmakers who are not among the latest measure's cosponsors, acted in line with the majority of their fellow Jewish congressmen.

The Bush administration strongly lobbied on Turkey's behalf before the vote, managing to persuade several Republicans to vote against the genocide measure. For instance, Illeana Ros-Lehtinen of Florida, the ranking Republican member in the committee and earlier a strong supporter of the Armenian cause, voted against the bill.

In another interesting example, Luis Fortuno, a Republican representative from Puerto Rico, said he decided to vote against the resolution after Bush personally called him on his cell phone and lobbied in Spanish.

source (http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=85898)

[dimitris]

From Times Online

October 11, 2007


From The Times archives: 'the Armenian massacres'


How The Times reported the story on Friday October 8, 1915

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00218/WrapPDF_218765a.jpg

A Correspondent


From The Times, Friday October 8, 1915

THE ARMENIAN MASSACRES

EXTERMINATING A RACE

A RECORD OF HORRORS

To one who remembers the rejoicings which welcomed the bloodless Turkish Revolution of 1908, the fraternization of Moslem and Christian, the confidence in a better future for the Armenians which survived even the Adana massacre of 1909, the story of the systematic persecution of the Armenians of Turkey is a bitter tale to tell. Talaat Bey and his extremist allies have out-Hamided Abdul Hamid. They have even shocked their German friends, thus attaining eminence in “frightfulness” to which the “Red Sultan” never soared.

When the Committee of Union and Progress finally decided to mobilize its forces against the Triple Entente, one of its first steps was to make an end of “all that nonsense about Armenian reforms,” as the Grand Vizier styled the latest reform scheme imposed by the Powers. One of the two European Inspectors-General, who were to watch over the Administration of the six Eastern Provinces of Turkey-in-Asia, had already set forth on his journey, greeted on his way by salaaming officials and escorted by respectful gendarmes. Then came the mobilization of the Turkish Army, and before he had even reached his destination he was bundled off, returning the Constantinople with a minimum of pomp and ceremony. At once occasional raids on Armenian villages began to be reported from the “Six Villayets”.

No massacre took place during the Turkish mobilization or the early stages of the Caucasus campaign. It was not until Enver Pasha’s Army had invaded Russian territory, and another Turkish force, composed in part of Kurdish irregulars, had invaded Azerbaijan, that massacres began. At Ardahan the Turkish regulars are said by the Russians to have killed 15 civilians during their brief occupation of the town, but their irregular allies and bands of Turkish fedais committed horrible crimes at Oity, Ardanush, Artum, and other places which they occupied, unchecked by the regulars. Armenians were thrown over cliffs, their women violated and abducted, their children frequently Islamised. The invasion of Azerbaijan was attended by similar excesses. The bulk of the Armenian population, after suffering great privations, escaped into Russian territory. According to Russian newspapers and American missionaries, over 2,000 were killed, often by order of Turkish Consuls, in North-West Persia. Kurdish tribesmen committed gruesome atrocities near Bayesid, and, when the worst of the winter was over, began to raid the Armenian villages near Van. The defeat of Sary Kamish, inflicted by an army which included many Armenians, had infuriated Enver’s ruthless temper. The systematic massacre of the 25,000 Armenians of the Bashkala district, of whom less than 10 per cent are said by Russian newspapers to have escaped slaughter or forced conversion, appears to have been ordered and carried out at this period.

The full description of the horrors that ensued along the frontier must be left to our Russian allies. Suffice it to say that late in April the Armenians in the Van district who had collected arms to defend themselves against the Kurds before the war were attacked by Kurds and Turkish gendarmes. In some places they were massacred; in others they more than held their own, and finally they captured the town of Van and took a bloody vengeance on their enemies. Early in May a Russo-Armenian army entered Van.


TALAAT BEY’S POLICY

It is said by the Turks in their defence that the decision to deport the Eastern Armenians was only arrived at after the discovery of an Armenian plot in Constantinople and after the Van outbreak. But the Armenians executed in Constantinople in April were men of the Hintchak society who had been in prison for over a year, and the deportation or massacre of Armenians had begun at many places before the Van Armenians were criminal enough to help themselves. There can be no doubt that Enver, who has never shrunk from violent methods, approved of the policy that was adopted. Commanding officers in the provinces received orders in April and May authorising them to deport all individuals or families whose presence might be regarded as politically or militarily dangerous, and in the case of some of the Cilician Armenians, deportation had begun earlier. But Talaat, who was in all probability the chief mover in the expulsion of Greeks from Western Anatolia, who has never scrupled to lie to an Ambassador or to encourage pro-Turkish intrigue in the dominions of friendly Powers, is the chief author of these crimes. “I intend to prevent any talk of Armenian autonomy for 50 years” and “The Armenians are a…race; their disappearance would be no loss” are sayings attributed to him on excellent authority. He has had worthy supporters among the extremists of the Committee of Union and Progress, such as Mukhlis Bey, Carusso Effendi and his Jewish revolutionary supporters, Midhat Shukri and others, among officials such as the Valis of Diarbekr and Angora, and among the officers of gendarmerie, who, if one-tenth of the tales told by European and American refugees is true, have cast off all trace of the European training which French and British officers laboriously tried to instil in them and have too often become little better than licentious banditti.


MASSACRE AREAS

Eastern Anatolia, Cilicia, and the Anti-Taurus region have been the scene of the worst cruelties on the part of the authorities and the population. In many cases the massacres were absolutely unprovoked. Thus at Marsovan, where there is an important American college, the authorities early in June ordered the Armenians to meet outside the town. They surrounded them there and the police and an armed mob killed, according to the Americans, 1,200 of the younger and more active Armenians whom the local Committee leaders and the gendarmerie most feared. The richer Armenians were allowed to avoid death by conversion to Islam, for which doubtful privilege they paid heavily. The poorer in some cases begged to be allowed to deny their faith and thus save their families, but as they had no money they were killed, or exiled. The younger women were distributed among the rabble. The rest of the community were driven across country to Northern Mesopotamia.

source (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2641064.ece)

[dimitris]

At Angora the Vali arrested the Armenian manager of the Imperial Ottoman Bank, who was sent away in a carriage and killed by the Vali’s orders some miles from the town. Mukhlis Bey, a prominent member of the Committee of Union and Progress, then produced an order from the Central Executive of the Committee ordering the slaughter of the most prominent Armenians whether Gregorian or Catholic. The order was served on the Military Commandant, who refused to obey it. Mukhlis then armed the rabble and 683 unarmed Armenians were killed. Many were Catholics, whose cruel fate is known to have aroused vigorous protests on the part of the Vatican.

At Bitlis and Mush a large number, according to some accounts 12,000 Armenians, many of them women, are reported to have been shot or drowned. At Sivas, Kaisari, and Diarbekr there were many executions, and several Armenian villages are reported completely wiped out. At Mosul the unhappy Armenians who were brought from the north in gangs were set upon by the mob. Many were killed and turks and Kurds came from as far as the Persian border to buy the women.

At Urfa, where the male Allied subjects formerly resident in Syria and one of two prisoners of war are now interned by Djemal Pasha’s orders, the first massacre took place in the third week of August. It was witnessed by the some of the Allied women and children who recently escaped from Syria. An English girl of 10 years of age saw an Armenian’s brains blown out and the bodies of women and children burnt with kerosene. Several smaller massacres followed the first outbreak, in which about 150 Armenians were killed. The military took no part in it, but left full freedom to the rabble, who slightly wounded several French prisoners who has been allowed to walk in the town. It is not surprising that the British, French, and Russian women who have escaped from Uría should express the liveliest apprehensions as to the fate of their menfolk prisoners in what is probably the most fanatical town in Turkey, and the scene of the burning of about 6,000 Armenians of both sexes in the Cathedral during the Hamidian massacres.


A DESPERATE RESISTANCE

The massacred Armenians had mostly given up their arms in accordance with the advice of their clergy. At four widely separated places resistance was offered. At Shaban Karahissar in North-East Anatolia, the Armenians took up arms, held off the Turkish troops for some time, and were finally overwhelmed. Some 4,000 were believed to have been killed or sold – the fate of the women and children – at this place. At Kharput, on hearing of the intention of the authorities to deport them, the Armenians rose on June 3, and for a week held the town. They were then overpowered by troops with artillery, and were mostly killed. The outbreak at Zeitun seems to have taken place in March and to have been a very trivial affair. The Armenians of the town of Zeitun, though formerly a turbulent race, handed over the few insurgents to the Turks, hoping thus to be spared, but Fakhry Pasha, the author of the second Adana massacre, nevertheless killed a few of the townsmen on the spot, and may have drafted the rest into labour battalions. The women, children, and infirm were sent to Zor – described by a most competent authority as a “human dustbin” where they are reported to by dying in large numbers.

The Armenians of Jebel Musa were ordered to quit their homes late in July. Believing very naturally that the Turks proposed to make away with them, they rose in revolt to the number of 600. Though poorly provided with arms, they held out for a month against about 4,000 Turkish troops. Their losses were slight. Those of the Turks, who seem to have been troops of inferior quality, are said by refugees from Syria to have amounted to from 300 to 400. The fighting was ruthlessly waged. The Turks carried off some 20 Armenian women and children, and executed 2 prisoners before the Armenian position. The Armenians retaliated by executing a Turkish major, a notable who had plundered one of their villages, and other prisoners whom they took. Ammunition was running low early in September, and a massacre seemed inevitable when French warships and a British vessel arrived and took off the Armenians to the number of 4,000, mostly women and children.

It may be noted that the only massacres reported in the Arab countries – namely, north of Baghdad, where about 1,000 Armenians are said on Armenian authority to have been killed at the end of their long journey from the North; and at Kebusie, in the Homs district, where a body of 250 Armenian deportees were killed, forcibly converted or, in the case of the girls, sold – were committed by the military, apparently Turks and Kurds.


DEPORTATION OR STARVATION

It remains to describe Talaat Bey’s methods in detail. Massacre was followed by a crueller system of persecution than Abdul Hamid ever invented. The Red Sultan’s abominations were seldom accompanied by the wholesale deportation of the survivors; the violation and abduction of women and the conversion of children, though sadly frequent in some places, were by no means general in the massacres of 1894-1896. Then the wild beast was allowed to run amok for 24 hours, and was then usually chained up.

In Talaat Bey’s campaign the preliminary massacre, which was sometimes omitted, was followed by the separation of the able-bodied men from their women folk. The former were drafted into labour battalions or simply disappeared. The women, children, and old men were next driven slowly across country. They were permitted to take no carts, baggage animals, or any large stock of provisions with them. They were shepherded from place to place by gendarmes, who violated some of the women, sold others, and robbed most. Infirm or aged folk, women great with child, and children were driven along till they dropped and died by the way. Gendarmes who returned to Alexandretta described with glee to Europeans how they robbed the fugitives. If these refused to give up their money their escort sometimes pushed them into streams or abandoned them in desolate places.

A European who witnessed the exodus of some of the Armenians of Cilicia says that most were footsore, all looked half starved, and no able-bodied man could be seen among them. At Osmanic on the road between Aleppo and Adana they were given only 8 hours’ notice by the town crier to make ready for their departure. The French and British refugees from Urfa saw the bodies of “hundreds” of women and children lying by the road and met another of these lamentable half-starved caravans. An American who accompanied a group of Armenian exiles from Malatia reports that the road to Urfa was marked all along its course by the bodies of those who had died. Travellers by the Anatolian Railway report that the hills near Bilejik Geive, and other stations in the hinterland of Brusa were crowded with Armenians from Brusa, Ismid, and other settlements near Constantinople, who had no shelter and were begging their bread. Large bodies of the exiles are said to have been simply led into the desert south of the Euphrates and left there to starve.

source (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2641064.ece?token=null&offset=12)

[dimitris]

THE TALLEST POPPIES

The policy which lost the Committee leaders Macedonia and is as old as King Tarquin, seems to have been revived by Talaat. Just who had been amnestied fell frequent victims to the bravi of the Committee, so now the Armenians who had cooperated most loyally with the Turkish Revolutionaries were among the first to feel the weight of Talaat’s hand.

Haladijian Effendi, ex-Minister of Public Works, was arrested in Constantinople after the discovery of an alleged Armenian plot, and in spite of his friendly relations with the Committee, of which he was a member, and his friendship with Talaat and Djavid Beys, was hurried into Anatolia, where he has disappeared. It is not known whether he is dead or alive. Garo Pasdermatjian, who took part in the attack on the Imperial Ottoman Bank in 1896, and was one of Talaat’s intimates, was also arrested. So were Vartkes, as popular a member of the Turkish Chamber of Deputies as Pasdermatjian, Aghnuni, the very able leader if the Dashnakist Society in Constantinople, Zohrab Effendi, M.P for Constantinople, an able but unpopular lawyer, who belonged to the Committee Party, Vartan Papazian, and other Armenians, several of whom were members of Parliament.

According to Armenian refugees from Syria, whose story is largely borne out by independent evidence, several of the prisoners arrived at Urfa in July. They were there entertained to dinner by the Chief of Police, who during the meal received a telegram from the Vali of Diarbekr bidding him send the prisoners to Diarbekr at once. They started before midnight, and early next morning were killed on the way by ‘brigands’. Zohrab is known to have met his fate there, and it is believed that Aghuni, Vartkes, Papazian and Pasdermatiijian died with him. Of Aghnuni’s death and that of Vartkes and Papazian there seems no doubt. A number of priests and at least one bishop wren reported executed by military courts.


WOMEN AND CHILDREN SOLD

Torture has been frequently used in the case of Armenian prisoners and suspects. The sale by Bird’s police of Armenian children of both sexes to the keepers of disorderly houses and Turks of bad moral character has provoked protest in Constantinople. The object of the conversion of children reported from some districts and the very general sale of women and girls appears to be political. Foreigners believe that Talaat has countenanced these crimes with the object of breaking up the strong social structure of the Armenian community in Turkey.

There are Turcophils who aver that the Armenians do not really object to such proceedings. One is reminded of a youthful and “highly well-born” traveller who, returning from Macedonia in the days of band warfare, reported as proof of Ottoman lenity that he had seen Slav girls dancing with Turkish irregulars. This cruel comedy had, of course, been arranged by an officer of gendarmerie, for the average Christian peasant girl in Macedonia would as soon dance with a Turk as an Anglo-Indian lady would consent to divert an Afghan with the danse du ventre. The belief that Armenians “do not mind” is a cruel falsehood. The Armenian woman of the country towns is nowadays often quite well educated and always strictly brought up, and her sufferings are doubtless as great as those of the average English or French farmer’s daughter would be were she subjected to similar cruelty.


GERMAN AND TURKISH PROTESTS

The attempts of the American Ambassador to procure some alleviation of the lot of Armenians have thus far proved unsuccessful. Mr Morganthau, in the opinion of good observers, wasted too much diplomatic energy on behalf of the Zionists of Palestine, who were in no danger of massacre, to have any force to spare. Talaat and Bedri simply own that persecuting Armenians amuses them and turn a deaf ear to American pleadings. German and Austro-Hungarian residents in Turkey at first approved of the punishment of Armenian “traitors”, but the methods of the Turkish extremists have sickened even Prussian stomachs. True the Jewish Baron von Oppendeim, now in Syria, has been preaching massacre, and the German Consular officials al Aleppo and Alexandretta have followed suit, perhaps with the idea of planting German colonists in the void left b the disappearance of the Armenians when the war is over. But the German Government has grown nervous. On August 31 the German and Austro-Hungarian Ambassadors protested to the Grand Vizier against the massacre of Armenians and demanded a written communication to the effects that neither of the Government had any connexion with these crimes. Turkey has not, so far, given her Allies a certificate of unblemished character, and the bestowal of the Ordro pour la Mérite on Envor Pahsa by the Kaiser is not likely to give the impression that Germany is in earnest.

There has been some Turkish protests against these abominations. The Turks of Aintab refused to permit the exile of the local Armenians. One of the Turkish Provincial Governors-General, who name had best not be mentioned lest he be transferred to another post – or world – has saved many exiles from starvation. Rahmi Boy, the bold Vali of Smyrna who has treated the interned British and French residents of the town right well, has repeatedly protested to the Porto against these crimes and has refused to hand over suspected Armenians for trial. The Sheikh-ul-Islam has salved his conscience by a tardy resignation, and Djahid and Djavid Boys have uttered plaintive protests when it was too late. In a few days’ time Parliament will meet and Talaat and his colleagues will then explain and defend their Armenian policy to the House. One can imagine what line their defence will follow – the necessity of securing national unity at this critical hour, the importance of checking dangerous and unpatriotic agitation, the deplorable crimes committed by the Armenians, the sufferings of tortured Muslims under British and Russian rule, and much more rhetoric of this kind. One cannot, unfortunately, imagine the Chamber of Deputies refusing to vote the fullest confidence in Talaat and Enver. Massacres will probably cease and the Armenians to be left to starve quietly.

source (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2641064.ece?token=null&offset=24)