Do you Believe?- A Higher Energy..

[tsunami]

I have been asked this question so many times that i have actually lost counting. This question and the answer accompanied by, is usually " Are you affiliated with a certain religion?" And if not, then you got to be an "atheist".

Well, that's not true. Not true at all.

Bottom line, why should i bow to Savaoth, Yahweh, Allah, Zeus, Buddha or whatever in order to prove to my interlocutor that i believe in a Higher Energy? Why should i accept the definition given to this Higher Energy by other individuals or organizations?

But if i don't, i am automatically either an atheist or an agnosticist?

Is that which degree exactly of stereotyping, or what?

But what is belief? What is faith? Is faith that which religious organizations believe that it is?

Why? 1)Because of their volumes follower's? 2)Because of their History? Or 3)because of the energy retransmitted by them through the Concentration of their subjects?.........

Full article Here (http://noemon.blogspot.com/2007/02/do-you-believe-higher-energy.html)

[HairyandHorny]

as far as i am concerned, i m an atheist proper, an atheist by definition...i dont believe in anything higher which has conclusive power on me, an "intelligent" "unbuilt" creative force or whatsoever

i m an incidental being myself who wont be around for long and wont get any kind of reward or punishment after my days are over...it may sound harsh to somebodies but thats the most likely answer to metaphysical pursues

i m very unhappy that i wasnt around to live and take part in some great events of the past and i m also very unhappy that i wont be around to live the thrilling developements of the future times....life is such a *****

[tsunami]

In my opinion, the power of the supreme intellegence, the higher energy is too obvious for it not to be awckoneledged.

An example would be the so many coincidences the human goes through his lifetime on earth. How many times have you thought of a friend and seconds later he has called you up on the phone?

Just a simple example that came to mind, i can think of various others more depicting but in any case. There is certainly a gap between in our scientific method, when it comes to explaining ceratin things, and this gap cannot be bypassed. Maybe we lack the technological means to understand it, but maybe there are no and will ever be any technological means able to explain it.

Anyway, i've lost my syllogism, the one when writing this brief thought, so ill jsut leave it there for now. When the Holy Spirit comes back, ill let you know...lol

[albgene]

I have been asked this question so many times that i have actually lost counting. This question and the answer accompanied by, is usually " Are you affiliated with a certain religion?" And if not, then you got to be an "atheist".

Well, that's not true. Not true at all.


Association by religion is no different than any other type of association.
We are all guilty of categorizing people based on different associations. These might be physical appearance, racial group, nationality etc.
We all get an “idea”(doesn’t matter how wrong we might be) of someone just based on their nationality or income for instance. Religion is no different; it helps people assign you to a category. If you are neither religious nor atheist, sheeples get puzzled as they can’t put you down to a group and create an opinion of you thus you shouldn’t be confused by that.

Abraham Lincoln when asked about religion said “when I do goof I feel good, when I do bad I feel bad….that’s my religion”. I feel the same way.

[Makeveli]

I sure do believe there is "something" to many thinks i have seen and heared, now you can call it whatever you want ... I think in the end (of our lives) we will find out :P

[tsunami]

Very brief and complete Albgene, Lakonik a Greek would say.

The full article furthers this question into the Easy and Hard Problem by David Chalmers (http://consc.net/papers/facing.html).

The above was my introduction for this esssentially. Please take some time to read through it and if bored to read through the whole thesis, just read through this paragraph:

"The easy problems and the hard problem"

There is not just one problem of consciousness. "Consciousness" is an ambiguous term, referring to many different phenomena. Each of these phenomena needs to be explained, but some are easier to explain than others. At the start, it is useful to divide the associated problems of consciousness into "hard" and "easy" problems. The easy problems of consciousness are those that seem directly susceptible to the standard methods of cognitive science, whereby a phenomenon is explained in terms of computational or neural mechanisms. The hard problems are those that seem to resist those methods.

The easy problems of consciousness include those of explaining the following phenomena:

the ability to discriminate, categorize, and react to environmental stimuli;
the integration of information by a cognitive system;
the reportability of mental states;
the ability of a system to access its own internal states;
the focus of attention;
the deliberate control of behavior;
the difference between wakefulness and sleep.
All of these phenomena are associated with the notion of consciousness. For example, one sometimes says that a mental state is conscious when it is verbally reportable, or when it is internally accessible. Sometimes a system is said to be conscious of some information when it has the ability to react on the basis of that information, or, more strongly, when it attends to that information, or when it can integrate that information and exploit it in the sophisticated control of behavior. We sometimes say that an action is conscious precisely when it is deliberate. Often, we say that an organism is conscious as another way of saying that it is awake.

There is no real issue about whether these phenomena can be explained scientifically. All of them are straightforwardly vulnerable to explanation in terms of computational or neural mechanisms. To explain access and reportability, for example, we need only specify the mechanism by which information about internal states is retrieved and made available for verbal report. To explain the integration of information, we need only exhibit mechanisms by which information is brought together and exploited by later processes. For an account of sleep and wakefulness, an appropriate neurophysiological account of the processes responsible for organisms' contrasting behavior in those states will suffice. In each case, an appropriate cognitive or neurophysiological model can clearly do the explanatory work.

If these phenomena were all there was to consciousness, then consciousness would not be much of a problem. Although we do not yet have anything close to a complete explanation of these phenomena, we have a clear idea of how we might go about explaining them. This is why I call these problems the easy problems. Of course, "easy" is a relative term. Getting the details right will probably take a century or two of difficult empirical work. Still, there is every reason to believe that the methods of cognitive science and neuroscience will succeed.

The really hard problem of consciousness is the problem of experience. When we think and perceive, there is a whir of information-processing, but there is also a subjective aspect. As Nagel (1974) has put it, there is something it is like to be a conscious organism. This subjective aspect is experience. When we see, for example, we experience visual sensations: the felt quality of redness, the experience of dark and light, the quality of depth in a visual field. Other experiences go along with perception in different modalities: the sound of a clarinet, the smell of mothballs. Then there are bodily sensations, from pains to orgasms; mental images that are conjured up internally; the felt quality of emotion, and the experience of a stream of conscious thought. What unites all of these states is that there is something it is like to be in them. All of them are states of experience.

It is undeniable that some organisms are subjects of experience. But the question of how it is that these systems are subjects of experience is perplexing. Why is it that when our cognitive systems engage in visual and auditory information-processing, we have visual or auditory experience: the quality of deep blue, the sensation of middle C? How can we explain why there is something it is like to entertain a mental image, or to experience an emotion? It is widely agreed that experience arises from a physical basis, but we have no good explanation of why and how it so arises. Why should physical processing give rise to a rich inner life at all? It seems objectively unreasonable that it should, and yet it does.

If any problem qualifies as the problem of consciousness, it is this one. In this central sense of "consciousness", an organism is conscious if there is something it is like to be that organism, and a mental state is conscious if there is something it is like to be in that state. Sometimes terms such as "phenomenal consciousness" and "qualia" are also used here, but I find it more natural to speak of "conscious experience" or simply "experience". Another useful way to avoid confusion (used by e.g. Newell 1990, Chalmers 1996) is to reserve the term "consciousness" for the phenomena of experience, using the less loaded term "awareness" for the more straightforward phenomena described earlier. If such a convention were widely adopted, communication would be much easier; as things stand, those who talk about "consciousness" are frequently talking past each other.

[HairyandHorny]

Very brief and complete Albgene, Lakonik a Greek would say.


...unlike the famous "tsunamian" way i d comment :D

anyway here is an effort to be laconic myself
....the wackies who made up all those religions throughtout times, were on heavy hallucinatory drugs that they consumed in their physical form (mushrooms, peyot, the parasite of wheat related with lsd, mandragore etc etc) and the people who nowadays believe in those rediculous and manipulating doctrines are in worse mental situation than a junky!

..as for the higher enery/mind/force etc etc, just try some lsd and i m sure u ll meet it sooner than u expect :P


I think in the end (of our lives) we will find out

u d better convince yourself that in the end of your life u will return to the condition u were before u got bornt and u wont have to worry finding out anything :P

anybody else who wants to be redemned?

[tsunami]

...unlike the famous "tsunamian" way i d comment :D

O:-) :P


u d better convince yourself that in the end of your life u will return to the condition u were before u got bornt and u wont have to worry finding out anything :P

anybody else who wants to be redemned?

People need to believe Pan, even the smart and intelligent ones, because faith is concentrating and medidative. It is another human function, which everyone of us interprets and uses in his own way, some interepretations are popular, which means that the dudes who performed the interpretations, were at least smart to say the least, and deserve the Credit due.

[HairyandHorny]

deserve the Credit due.

the problem lies that millions of believers out there do stupid and dangerous things which ignore all logic, expecting to receive after life (or in life time) a kind of credit, which are propagandised by every religious system
...u may ask what this has to do with me but the answer is obvious since all the outcomes of such abnormal behaviors have impact on all those who dont have anything to do with religions


because faith is concentrating and medidative.

i can think of many kinds of non religious "faiths" and a good number of concentrating and medidative stuff that works for me (unlike religious faith which has no use but for naive and lunatic individuals)

[Amin]

H&H could you choose your language more carefully? I'd hate to hit delete button all the time.

I think everyone is familiar with your feelings towards religions and religious people.

But I don't see those religious people expressing their feelings towards you and your kind in same way.

[tsunami]

i can think of many kinds of non religious "faiths" and a good number of concentrating and medidative stuff that works for me

Exactly, but YOU can, what about the stupid/non-smart?

That sort of people need guidance. For something that cant perform themselves. Or apply to various things in their life.

As fot the credit due, come on Pan, cant you at least admit, that Abraaham was Smart enough to convince some 6 billion people?

[Amin]

The idiot needs guidance.

Nice going tsunami. Is this thread only made for bashing? I will lock it if you both continue this way.

[tsunami]

Amin, when i saw that you were here, i deleted in order to avoid misunderstandings, it doesnt point at you, and i swear to everything holy to me.

It points at the general blind mass, i usually use, the he/she/it is, in order ot be stairght forward, when i saw your presence i immediately realized, that iy will be misunderstood, cause it followed your post, which i hadnt seen before i made the post, and rushed to make it they/them/their, meaning the mass, the crowd.

Honestly man.

[tsunami]

Do you believe that this thread is made for bashing?

Please read through it, you will be interested.

And please delete these off-topic posts.

[HairyandHorny]

Abraaham was Smart enough to convince some 6 billion people?

lets remove from the sum the chinese, japs, hindus etc :P


But I don't see those religious people expressing their feelings towards you and your kind in same way.

actually this is the part that interests me the most
..one can learn useful things for himself and the other people that way
btw i m fully aware of the exact feelings of the orthodox christian believers depending on their understanding of the dominant religion, towards me and "my kind" (which is?)

rest yourself that u can describe me in the wildest way u like :)

-i ll watch my language, k

[Amin]

@tsunami I know what you meant. In any case can't you both choose terms in this kind of subject?

It doesn't matter if I read this, someone else will read it too, both members and guests and what they're gonna think?

Anyway you've been warned.:)

Now you may continue, I'm out.

[tsunami]

Amin, you do have a point that the language used is not the best it could be, but it doesnt necessarily mean that it is pointed towards certain people, if you visit us in Greece, you ll undeerstand us easier.

Anyway sorry for my part, i try really to be as much as politically correct as possible, after you wife was offended, i really took it personally. Dont expect any offensive language from my part, i really try. I think twice and thrice before i press the button, just in case, but sometimes i am too eager to post.

[tsunami]

To continue..


Exactly, but YOU can, what about the stupid/non-smart?

"Makarioi oi ptwxoi tw pneymati".

"Excused the poor to the spirit" says the Bible, Pan.

[HairyandHorny]

both members and guests and what they're gonna think?


they will think that they came across the typical chaotic difference between a believer and a non believer...which unfortunately lacks the interesting comment of what the islam believer thinks of the non believer and why

[Amin]

which unfortunately lacks the interesting comment of what the islam believer thinks of the non believer and why

We feel sorry for them(not hate). But in religion there's no compulsion, so you have choice not to believe.

[tsunami]

From David Chalmers isolation of the Easy and Hard Problems of Conciousness:

the ability of a system to access its own internal states;

This is what medidation, praying, is made for.

The techniques used by religions and the people who created them are not to be bashed, nor are the people who use them. Actually the only way to utilize such a system was through religion. It took Science some milleniums to launch such utility programs.

And dont use the argument because of religion, because it doesnt stand, because of political religious leaders, yes, not because of religion itself.

[HairyandHorny]

We feel sorry for them(not hate). But in religion there's no compulsion, so you have choice not to believe.

of course i have (but dont tell it to the moula and taliban because they wont appriciate it much :P )

...u missed the most interesting part, the "why" part (why u feel sorry)



The techniques used by religions and the people who created them are not to be bashed, nor are the people who use them.

what techiques, the licking of the icon while u crawl like a worm, the rapes and abuses in the monasteries or those ones u can see
here (http://www.balkanium.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2367)

[tsunami]

Pan, this doesnt work with me, the techniques used by believers like my mother and your grandmother.

The O glyky mou Ear that you listen during Easter, the beautiful Akathistos Humnos. The medidation of the oldwoman before going to bed, through her proseyhitari.

I cant understand why you see only the ugly part of religion and fail to see the beautiful one.

Or what is your thesis, that religion, has only brought, suffering and pain to mankind? And nothing pretty?

Have you listened to the Hymns of Romano the Melodo?

[Amin]

of course i have (but dont tell it to the moula and taliban because they wont appriciate it much )

What is moula?:? :P If you think mullah, that's persian word for lower level scholar; if they've been studying Islam(which is very long process) they also know very well "no compulsion in religion" part.
When you talk about Taliban, they mixed religion with their culture, they might be fanatic yeah but do you see them going outside of Afghanistan to conquer more lands and kill all non-believers?No.
So don't worry, you are safe.;)


...u missed the most interesting part, the "why" part (why u feel sorry)

Well because I, personally, see you(non believers) kind of lost.

And because you don't want to think that you have Creator and refuse to believe in Him, you will be the losers in hereafter. That is why we, Muslims, feel sorry.

We feel sorry that you fail to see beauty of this world without even considering how it all got created in perfect harmony.

[tsunami]

"Lost in Translation", Amin, btw, i enjoyed that film.

What specified believers must realize Amin, is that the world doesnot necessarily fits with their specified interpretation, but it evolves, and so must the interpretation if it wishes to be regarded as a valid one in proximity.

[HairyandHorny]

Pan, this doesnt work with me, the techniques used by believers like my mother and your grandmother.

The O glyky mou Ear that you listen during Easter, the beautiful Akathistos Humnos. The medidation of the oldwoman before going to bed, through her proseyhitari.

I cant understand why you see only the ugly part of religion and fail to see the beautiful one.

Or what is your thesis, that religion, has only brought, suffering and pain to mankind? And nothing pretty?

Have you listened to the Hymns of Romano the Melodo?

tsu those are empty words for me even if the "oh glyke moy ear" sounds nice and funny

now read what u have written (i cant quote all your words)


the ability of a system to access its own internal states;

This is what medidation, praying, is made for.

The techniques used by religions and the people who created them are not to be bashed, nor are the people who use them. Actually the only way to utilize such a system was through religion. It took Science some milleniums to launch such utility programs

....and then click here (http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/8200/1el11aez9.gif)

i choose the bashing part therefore, thankuverymuch

====


So don't worry, you are safe

i m safe (and so are u and everybody) because i live in EU in 2007

as for the mullahs and the talibans i m sure they wouldnt be tolerant at all with me living amongst them :P


And because you don't want to think that you have Creator and refuse to believe in Him, you will be the losers in hereafter. That is why we, Muslims, feel sorry.

can u define for me the words in bold?
..and then try to xplain what will improve in my life the believing in islam lets say

-dont waste your time in praying for us, the poor losers, we dont need it!


We feel sorry that you fail to see beauty of this world without even considering how it all got created in perfect harmony.

i can see it wherever i look and i just luv it and that makes me very sad that i wont be able to seeing it foreover...a nice flower, the sky, my awesome apollonian body :P , sexie female humps, wet lips, and all the great and sad feelings that make us alive

[Amin]

i m safe (and so are u and everybody) because i live in EU in 2007

as for the mullahs and the talibans i m sure they wouldnt be tolerant at all with me living amongst them

Yeah they probably wouldn't like atheists to live with them, but that doesn't mean they would "force you to believe". One of the reasons is that people like you couldn't be really trusted, what stops you to steal, what stops you to lie, what stops you to do anything when nothing is holy to you and you're not afraid that you'll be punished for your actions. That is how most religious people think.


can u define for me the words in bold?

Creator and hereafter? Well I think you know what those words mean. Creator is the one who created you and shaped you in womb of your mother, who created everything you see and here in this world and everything you don't see. He is not a picture or a statue, those can be easily broken. He is Eternal and He is nothing like His creations. Hereafter is life after death. I'm sure you know this earth is not here to be forever, so when it comes end there will be the Day of Judgement. On that day you will know what is your destination after this short life on earth.


..and then try to xplain what will improve in my life the believing in islam lets say

Uhh..I don't have much time now really, if you are interested I'll open new thread in next days and explain Islamic akida(creed). Maybe you'll find some answers there.


-dont waste your time in praying for us, the poor losers, we dont need it!

Well you never know.;) Many atheists and atheist-scientists converted to Islam, so nothing is impossible.


i can see it wherever i look and i just luv it and that makes me very sad that i wont be able to seeing it foreover...a nice flower, the sky

And how you think ALL that came to be? By chance?
Example in Islam, you will be able to see and enjoy in these and many more,never before seen, things FOREVER. :P

[tsunami]

Pan do not enter "lock mode".

What i am saying here, is that religion any for that matter, among other things(bad or good), teaches the human how to medidate and concentrate.

You and other individuals have found their own ways to medidate and therefore religion is ineffective for you. BUt what about a stupid individual? One that hasnt got the capacity to think for himself and medidate?

Doesn't religion as a system not as an organizational entity; serve a noble cause for that matter?

[tsunami]

what stops you to steal, what stops you to lie, what stops you to do anything when nothing is holy to you and you're not afraid that you'll be punished for your actions.

Morality Amin, ethics, ethics is a scientific concept created by philosophers. Its not bound, neither copyrighted by any religion.

[Amin]

Morality Amin, ethics, ethics is a scientific concept created by philosophers. Its not bound, neither copyrighted by any religion.

Tsunami some of those philosophers thought there's nothing immoral in being homosexual.
And what guarantees me that you got morals? And having high morals might have one meaning to religious people and different meaning to you.

[tsunami]

Tsunami some of those philosophers thought there's nothing immoral in being homosexual.

Amin, i didnt expect to use the same arguments that have just been refuted. I can tell you here and some religions accept homosexuality as moral. But then youll tell me, "well not mine" and ill tell you "Not my philosophy either".

So...


And what guarantees me that you got morals? And having high morals might have one meaning to religious people and different meaning to you. Faith, the same faith that guarantees you safety among your co-believers.

[HairyandHorny]

Yeah they probably wouldn't like atheists to live with them, but that doesn't mean they would "force you to believe". One of the reasons is that people like you couldn't be really trusted, what stops you to steal, what stops you to lie, what stops you to do anything when nothing is holy to you and you're not afraid that you'll be punished for your actions. That is how most religious people think.

dont mistake me with those who dont steal in islamic countries because they know they will have their arm cutt off when arrested!

i d steal if that was the only way to survive, i would make a harmless cheat to improve my living, i try seeing in others my own self (the only mind that one can approach to understand-and thats not a rule) so that i minimise any possible harms to others out of my doings and behavior

apparently i have no need to be said what to do by an outclassed book (and set of values which i dont accept as a whole of course) which was instructed to an arab named mohammed by the "strong man" gabriel

btw the legal and justice system has to do with dealing with criminals, and not the religion!


Creator and hereafter? Well I think you know what those words mean. Creator is the one who created you and shaped you in womb of your mother, who created everything you see and here in this world and everything you don't see.

i cannot understand what is "creator"
the function of my mothers body shaped me in the womb after the conception, and it didnt need any extra help to do so....my conception and my formation was a result of coincidental procedures that resulted me, a coincidental living being

the creator u describe seems to be powerless to keep up the shaping of numberless other beings who are aborted by a decision of their mothers...and if he is not powerless he is making discrimination amongst his "offsprings" with no real reason..the only "creators" i can see are the mothers who either with the physical function of their wonderful female mechanisms maintain our kind or by their decisions inflicted by the socialisation and norms, end the pregnacy

as u can understand your description of the creator is not adequate

--of course if the koran (or the xian teaching) was written nowadays that the abortions are very often, they would have taken good care to present a "convincing" "story" on that issue....but back at the time they "teaching" were formed, abortions were no issue
....hm that reminds me the god of the jews who sent them to the "promise land" which now the jews should hate him that he lead them to the only land of middle east with no oil :D :D --


He is not a picture or a statue, those can be easily broken. He is Eternal and He is nothing like His creations. Hereafter is life after death. I'm sure you know this earth is not here to be forever, so when it comes end there will be the Day of Judgement. On that day you will know what is your destination after this short life on earth.

dont tell me your arguments against christianity
not needed, i reassure u


I'm sure you know this earth is not here to be forever, so when it comes end there will be the Day of Judgement. On that day you will know what is your destination after this short life on earth.

i think earth will disappear when the sun will become giant before it loses its energy, if not destroyed earlier by other coincidental event

...pardom me but whats your evidence of this day of judgment besides what u read in the islamic teaching?

why u are unable to accept the apparent ie that your existence will follow the natural path and end, just like the tree dies, the dogs die etc (no reincarnation, no ressurection, no heaven, no hell, no becoming angels etc)
...why people are so arrogant and believe to live for ever, and are so insecure that need to be saved from something inexistant? :?

one may argue that an atheist is condemned never to be happy and to be afraid of dying etc but the ones who truly lose the meaning of life are those who corrupt their coming in life by preaching impossible things in order to lead people in the way they want them to be lead.....
...the only thing that people need is to accept their nature and stop fooling their own selves by making up supernatural causes and beings!!


Uhh..I don't have much time now really, if you are interested I'll open new thread in next days and explain Islamic akida(creed). Maybe you'll find some answers there.

its not about finding answers, but making up questions!


Well you never know.;) Many atheists and atheist-scientists converted to Islam, so nothing is impossible.

maybe its my kismet (sp?)
lets see :P

but i guess i dont stand a chance converting to religion if u consider that i pissed the priest during my christening procedure (and that was one of my best responses to a priest ever) :D


And how you think ALL that came to be? By chance?

yes when the right stuff came together and evovled according to the needs imposed by the enviroment and the relative changes on it

by natutal process which doesnt demand obeying, following rules and worshipping pf course


Example in Islam, you will be able to see and enjoy in these and many more,never before seen, things FOREVER. :P

i ve also njoyed stuff that some people will never njoy, and the experiences stay for ever...the problem is that time and assets are not indefinate so we all have to make choices about how to enjoy ourselves the best

[HairyandHorny]

Tsunami some of those philosophers thought there's nothing immoral in being homosexual.

a part of the population is homos and they cant help themselves but be what they are, i dont like them much myself but i can tolerate them if they dont try to smack my ass!

-the dealing of the homosexuality by the society is a matter which differs from time to time, culture to culture, religion to religion etc

...my question is why didnt the "creator" took care of the homos when he "created" them, he didnt make them straight proper? (and dont imply here that all homos are kinky because they choose to be)

another question, why the creator sometimes instead of male/female proper, he "creates" quasi male/females, hermaphrodites or abnormal males/females?

[tsunami]

its not about finding answers, but making up questions!

The essence of reason.

As for the rest, you know that i agree with most of them except with your absolutistic behavior, similar to the religious absolutistic behaviors, which you so reasonably detest.

But...

[HairyandHorny]

your absolutistic behavior, similar to the religious absolutistic behaviors, which you so reasonably detest.

i m atheist and i njoy it just like amin njoys being a muzl and u being an agnosticist (?) i guess

the difference is that i dont believe what i believe because i converted in a system of beliefs which demand me to accept certain things which dont make sense, nor i want to fool my self by leaving a small window open just in case :P

hehe

[tsunami]

HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE

[tsunami]

AAAAAAAhahahahahaha.

[tsunami]

We should have been discussing live now, it would take too much time and it would be a very long post, to define the reasoning.

But windows in our Greek law, make miracles...;)

[tsunami]

Btw, Pan, Epicurus would best describe my inner world, while Heraclitus would best describe my metaphysical conceptions. While Christ represents the perfect "Body", And Hinduism the perfect "mind".

So what am i, Pan?:dazed053:

[Amin]

dont mistake me with those who dont steal in islamic countries because they know they will have their arm cutt off when arrested!

First time they'll get away with warning, this also prevents people who are hypocrites(show off as Muslims but they don't believe from the heart) to steal. Because if they don't believe that they will be punished after death, they certainly are afraid to commit crime for which they will be punished in this life.


i d steal if that was the only way to survive,

If a man is starving stealing food is not considered a crime in Islam.


i would make a harmless cheat to improve my living,

This already makes you greedy, and you are not good for the society; you don't want to improve your living by hard work but by cheating. That is one big difference between you and believers.


apparently i have no need to be said what to do by an outclassed book

Again that is your choice.


the function of my mothers body shaped me in the womb after the conception

Who controls that function? What makes that function to work? Function functions by itself? Just like that?


my conception and my formation was a result of coincidental procedures that resulted me

It's funny that you think your creation, creation of sky, oceans, trees are all coincidences.


why u are unable to accept the apparent ie that your existence will follow the natural path and end, just like the tree dies, the dogs die etc (no reincarnation, no ressurection, no heaven, no hell, no becoming angels etc)

We don't believe in reincarnation. We know that we will die one day, of course, no one here lives forever. We are given this one life and it's a test. We'll see in the end who passed it.


...why people are so arrogant and believe to live for ever, and are so insecure that need to be saved from something inexistant?

I don't see arrogance in that, I see beauty in this world, I'm honest, my belief and actions don't harm anybody. I'm truly happy, I got everything I want in life and if I die tomorrow I won't be sorry. I'm not afraid of death.


yes when the right stuff came together and evovled according to the needs imposed by the enviroment and the relative changes on it

I love your philosophy.:P I guess you also think we evolved from monkeys.
However that is just a theory, since you think I'm arrogant, how come you believe in this theory which has so many holes and modern scientists don't even believe in it anymore.


...my question is why didnt the "creator" took care of the homos when he "created" them, he didnt make them straight proper? (and dont imply here that all homos are kinky because they choose to be)

He created everything in pairs. There are even flowers in pairs. Men are meant to be with women.
You know the story, he created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.:D
As I said before humans were given a choice, free will. Those people are not created gays, they chose to be.


another question, why the creator sometimes instead of male/female proper, he "creates" quasi male/females, hermaphrodites or abnormal males/females?

You sure have a lot of questions.;)
Things which happen in this life are also punishment and part of the test. Example having deformed child might be punishment for mother who used drugs and alcohol in the past; it also can be part of the test for believers, during hardship will they still believe or lose their faith in God. Everything happens for a reason, and since we are so tiny and powerless in this huge universe we cannot possibly always understand why and how.


...pardom me but whats your evidence of this day of judgment besides what u read in the islamic teaching?

That is part of the belief. What is your evidence that there is nothing after this life?
We have in Qur'an and Prophet's(saws) teachings the signs described of what will happen when the Day of Judgement is near to come. Some things have happened and some not yet.

Anyways I'm dragged into this discussion without really wanting to.

If you are happy being an atheist that's fine by me.

Also my personal choice shouldn't bother or affect you either.

I'm out.

Peace.

[HairyandHorny]

Btw, Pan, Epicurus would best describe my inner world, while Heraclitus would best describe my metaphysical conceptions. While Christ represents the perfect "Body", And Hinduism the perfect "mind".

So what am i, Pan?:dazed053:

i d say "otinanist" but lets ask alalzia first if u qualify for the club :P

btw where do u read all that crap? :P
just kiddin :D

===

i read that sanaya was offended or something?
well thats not fair but its typical, some females complain over and over for not be treated with the same standards etc etc and when somebody refers to them directly what he thinks same way he would respond to a dude, without the usual attitude that women are used to, they get offended :?

[Amin]

i read that sanaya was offended or something?
well thats not fair but its typical, some females complain over and over for not be treated with the same standards etc etc and when somebody refers to them directly what he thinks same way he would respond to a dude, without the usual attitude that women are used to, they get offended

Sanya wasn't offended, that was tsunami's assumption.
She's used to arguing with all kind of people.:P

Just because she doesn't post often doesn't mean she's easily offended.


Now don't be off topic.

[HairyandHorny]

First time they'll get away with warning, this also prevents people who are hypocrites(show off as Muslims but they don't believe from the heart) to steal. Because if they don't believe that they will be punished after death, they certainly are afraid to commit crime for which they will be punished in this life.

i think that kind of logic is harsh and primitive


If a man is starving stealing food is not considered a crime in Islam.

thats a good one, fair is fair


This already makes you greedy, and you are not good for the society; you don't want to improve your living by hard work but by cheating. That is one big difference between you and believers.

go tell this to the muzl oil-producers


Who controls that function? What makes that function to work? Function functions by itself? Just like that?

the woman is a biological being which is meant to form the offspring inside her

her biological status defines her functions

when i want to go to the rest room, i dont need god to make my intestine work, do i?


It's funny that you think your creation, creation of sky, oceans, trees are all coincidences.

out of coincidences our planet can preserve that kind of life atm....in past periods it preserved different kinds of life and in future periods it will be suitable for other types maybe along with the evolution of the current types which will survive

other planets dont have life, or have different life or had life in the past but dont have now, other may have intelligent life..who knows

all that are part of coincidence, the funny would be that an intelligent mind which showed up to people through abraham (ibraem), controlled everything throughout universe!....and lost his time trying to make mohamed write the koran for us in the tiny earth!


We don't believe in reincarnation. We know that we will die one day, of course, no one here lives forever. We are given this one life and it's a test. We'll see in the end who passed it.

i know u dont have reicarnation, that went for other cults which believe in this

so after your mortal life ends, i assume that u will either join the abrahamic paradise or suffer with the seitan?


I don't see arrogance in that, I see beauty in this world, I'm honest, my belief and actions don't harm anybody. I'm truly happy, I got everything I want in life and if I die tomorrow I won't be sorry. I'm not afraid of death.

if u should cut the arm of somebody because he stole, would u be happy with hurting him?

-the arrogance is that u believe in hereafter instead of accepting that your existance will end, your mind/perception will fade away with your death just like an animal and a plant becomes inexistant eventually


I love your philosophy.:P I guess you also think we evolved from monkeys.
However that is just a theory, since you think I'm arrogant, how come you believe in this theory which has so many holes and modern scientists don't even believe in it anymore.

so scientists dont believe in evolving through mutations of the genes according to the enviroment?

and havent u heard that most species share almost the same dna code?
..maybe WS could tell us how much % human dna is same with a worm


He created everything in pairs. There are even flowers in pairs. Men are meant to be with women.
You know the story, he created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.:D
As I said before humans were given a choice, free will. Those people are not created gays, they chose to be.

some chose because they are kinky and are addicted to their prostate being stimulate, others are bornt to njoy that thing same way we enjoy the way which lead to breeding so u cant blame them for prefering people of the same sex as partners or impose them your ways

the way u put it seems to blame any kind of delight coming from sex, including sex between males and females

the church was (and i guess still is) against sex for delight and not breeding

and yes i m familiar with the story (and many other stories) but also i m able to understand its just a naive old story which doesnt mean anything really (lets not analyse it more)


You sure have a lot of questions.;)
Things which happen in this life are also punishment and part of the test. Example having deformed child might be punishment for mother who used drugs and alcohol in the past; it also can be part of the test for believers, during hardship will they still believe or lose their faith in God. Everything happens for a reason, and since we are so tiny and powerless in this huge universe we cannot possibly always understand why and how.

let me tell u something, the way u described your deity would make me eager to join the "other side" no matter which that side was >=)

btw although the medicine also tells women not to do harmful things during pregnacy, deformed children are stil bornt, and believe me if i was bornt crippled your description would provide me no consolation at all :angry019:


That is part of the belief. What is your evidence that there is nothing after this life?
We have in Qur'an and Prophet's(saws) teachings the signs described of what will happen when the Day of Judgement is near to come. Some things have happened and some not yet.

same stuff believe the xians as well but old writings dont mean that Doom Days are there and somebody will judge us for our doings....besides other more ancient religions didnt have judgement days, lets say egyptian and greek
...the norse one had a kind of doom but then the son rose again tuh duh!

my evidence is that humen are biological entities based on carbon and when they pass away, their fate is same as the similar biologocal entities which they dissolve without having to be tested in any JD

the fact that humen were evolved to extremely creative beings, doesnt mean we are anything specially as far as life after death is concerned


Anyways I'm dragged into this discussion without really wanting to.

i "raped" your free will, i hope talking with an atheist isnt considered a sin! :P
just kiddin here :)
discussion never hurt anybody :victory:

[albgene]

The believer’s idea of God is no different of that of a child for Superman. Both have supra-natural powers and can spin the world as they like, both are very cool if you ask me…and at 10 years old I really had trouble picking a favorite.

I read your piece Tsu, it’s pretty good.
Religion is the domain of the superego, that’s the bastard in charge of our so called “way of life, path to virtue”, consciousness or ego if you will, is the one who fought and won the war for us.

For some people religion is a guidance they need, and religion makes them better men. A peasant with no access to education learns what’s right and what’s wrong from the Bible or Quran. I say “praise the Lord” for that. I don’t want a world with angry peasants. (Actually, funny thing is many Albanian immigrants in Greece in the early 90’s were atheist peasants…not a good mix).
There is another category, a smaller one which is comprised by weak people, who although intelligent enough choose deliberately and blindly the path written in the holy book.
Another is comprised by masochists who take pleasure at doing something which hurts their brain and blindly follow the rules set out for them. An example for this was an evangelical leader who turned out to be homosexual and that was not his only sin…
Last one is the so-called believers, many of those around.

The first category is the only one that I’d throw in a Bible Koran or Torah if you will.

[HairyandHorny]

The believer’s idea of God is no different of that of a child for Superman. Both have supra-natural powers and can spin the world as they like, both are very cool if you ask me…and at 10 years old I really had trouble picking a favorite.

I read your piece Tsu, it’s pretty good.
Religion is the domain of the superego, that’s the bastard in charge of our so called “way of life, path to virtue”, consciousness or ego if you will, is the one who fought and won the war for us.

For some people religion is a guidance they need, and religion makes them better men. A peasant with no access to education learns what’s right and what’s wrong from the Bible or Quran. I say “praise the Lord” for that. I don’t want a world with angry peasants. (Actually, funny thing is many Albanian immigrants in Greece in the early 90’s were atheist peasants…not a good mix).
There is another category, a smaller one which is comprised by weak people, who although intelligent enough choose deliberately and blindly the path written in the holy book.
Another is comprised by masochists who take pleasure at doing something which hurts their brain and blindly follow the rules set out for them. An example for this was an evangelical leader who turned out to be homosexual and that was not his only sin…
Last one is the so-called believers, many of those around.

The first category is the only one that I’d throw in a Bible Koran or Torah if you will.

seconded, i gave u a rep therefore

the difference between how me and Amin (lets say) percieve the world, lies in the fact that while mine life and attitude wouldnt change at all if the hereafter, the JD etc etc were all true, Amins internal world would collapse if what he believes in was declared a lie

btw Amin its so senseless to discover "sins" depending in which "hole" one finds pleasure...maybe we should blame the blowjobs too :P
..u can name the faggot practises disgusting etc etc but shouldnt be demonished as "sinful"
..i ve seen my male dog trying to smack other male dogs asses, i dont say lets do what dogs do, just that is something which occur in nature..
one would say that for your 23 old wife it would be in her nature to have by now 5-6 children if it wasnt for the social norms, but u understand my point i guess

[Amin]

the difference between how me and Amin (lets say) percieve the world, lies in the fact that while mine life and attitude wouldnt change at all if the hereafter, the JD etc etc were all true, Amins internal world would collapse if what he believes in was declared a lie

btw Amin its so senseless to discover "sins" depending in which "hole" one finds pleasure...maybe we should blame the blowjobs too
..u can name the faggot practises disgusting etc etc but shouldnt be demonished as "sinful"
..i ve seen my male dog trying to smack other male dogs asses, i dont say lets do what dogs do, just that is something which occur in nature..
one would say that for your 23 old wife it would be in her nature to have by now 5-6 children if it wasnt for the social norms, but u understand my point i guess

I would appreciate if you would leave my wife out of this discussion. This is second time and you don't need to use her as an example. If she comes here to talk than you can address her.

You are wrong, my world wouldn't collapse, I would still be happy with my choices in life; but in your case if you find out that hereafter do exist, and you find that too late you will be the one who begs to go back to life and make different choices in life.

Yes there are that kind of dogs, also there is group of insects where after copulating female insect bites the head of a male one. Does that mean human should immitate all animals?

Anyway you are free to think that being homo is nice and natural thing, I don't really care.


my evidence is that humen are biological entities based on carbon and when they pass away, their fate is same as the similar biologocal entities which they dissolve without having to be tested in any JD

You don't have evidence is there or isn't there after this life anything else. You didn't die and come back to life to tell us how it is on other side.;)


same stuff believe the xians as well but old writings dont mean that Doom Days are there and somebody will judge us for our doings....besides other more ancient religions didnt have judgement days, lets say egyptian and greek

There are no judgement DAYS, there is only One, and it will be the Day of Judgement before this earth is destroyed and that Day is for all human beings from the beginning of times till the end. So the ancient egyptians and greeks will be judged as well.


discussion never hurt anybody

Sometimes discussion with atheists lead to insults from their side just because they don't believe or don't want to understand us who do believe.

So I don't see always this kind of discussions as productive.

Also it's amazing how much time atheists spend in actually talking about religion and trying to convince believers that they are so wrong. And then they say we are intolerant.

I'm not here for any missionary work, so my goal isn't to convince you in anything.

I would like to end this here and I would appreciate if you would not to drag me back into this discussion.

You can continue discussion with others here but have in mind also how you are expressing yourself. Thank you.

[HairyandHorny]

You are wrong, my world wouldn't collapse, I would still be happy with my choices in life; but in your case if you find out that hereafter do exist, and you find that too late you will be the one who begs to go back to life and make different choices in life.

u are badly mistaken, i have made my choices (and still form them) as far as religion is concerned, and i d never cooperate with such cruel deities like the ones u worship if they were out there, even if it would torture (hm revengous deity, not so "forgiveful" with "contesters") me in "hell" for ever :common051

on the other hand one can easily understand what would happen to a believer whose life so far is determined by specific preachings and rules, as soon as he would find out god is a fairy tale, by checking out his posts in any forum


Yes there are that kind of dogs, also there is group of insects where after copulating female insect bites the head of a male one. Does that mean human should immitate all animals?

i named an example of a mammal which is considerable closer to a human being than an incest, if that means something to u


Anyway you are free to think that being homo is nice and natural thing, I don't really care.

if its nice for him and he doesnt do it on my face, let him do it, who am I (or u) to tell him how to have sex
..same for fags, same for straight men who like doing annal sex to women, i see no prob if they like it themselves


You don't have evidence is there or isn't there after this life anything else. You didn't die and come back to life to tell us how it is on other side.;)

lol
if i died that would be permanent and i wouldnt be able to come back and testify my alleged experience!
..people who have a different view are probable ifluenced by movies and TV shows with obscure metaphysical pursues about afterlifes, past lifes etc etc :surrender


There are no judgement DAYS, there is only One, and it will be the Day of Judgement before this earth is destroyed and that Day is for all human beings from the beginning of times till the end. So the ancient egyptians and greeks will be judged as well.

i meant why should i believe any modern monotheistic religion lets say which speaks about JDs, and not believe other religions (modern or ancient ones) which dont speak of doom days etc etc?
hem?


Sometimes discussion with atheists lead to insults from their side just because they don't believe or don't want to understand us who do believe.

i perfectly understand every bit of info u provide and after u asked to watch my language i ve not written anything insulting, did i?


So I don't see always this kind of discussions as productive.

u may always see the fruits of such debates later in your life...still if u dont the discussions never hurt anybody


I'm not here for any missionary work, so my goal isn't to convince you in anything.

just for the record i heard something that have done some of such work around :P
not that its blameful, just i think i ve heard something about it

[tsunami]

I havent got anything to add at the moment, awaiting for the next Holy Spirit visit..:P

Thank you Albgene, am glad you enjoyed it.