Kosovo Turks find fault with Ahtisaari plan

[Bunjevac]

Kosovo Turks find fault with Ahtisaari plan
21/03/2007

Ethnic Turks who have been living in Kosovo for centuries are not happy with UN special envoy Martti Ahtisaari's Kosovo plan. They say the plan is a "step back" from their cultural and linguistic rights.
By Ahmet Gormez for Southeast European Times in Ankara – 21/03/07


UN special envoy Martti Ahtisaari's plan does not give enough rights to the Turkish minority in Kosovo, a group of NGOs says. [Getty Images]

Several Turkish NGOs in Kosovo gathered last month in Vushtrri to assess UN special envoy Martti Ahtisaari's plan to resolve the province's status. The group, expressing their disapproval with the blueprint, sent a letter to international missions and institutions in the province.

The Ahtisaari plan provides a basis for supervised independence, and strives for a multiethnic and democratic Kosovo which demonstrates respect for human rights. They say these are the positive aspects, but add that the plan has some gaps.

Kosovo Turks want the plan to secure education, language, cultural heritage and other rights for minority communities. The group says that according to the plan, ethnic Albanians and Serbs have a right to education in Albanian or Serbian, but other ethnic groups cannot get education in their mother tongue unless they are a majority in the place they live. If the plan does not change, Turks will only be able to get Turkish education in the Mamusa region.

"According to the Ahtisaari plan, Serbian is one of the official languages in places where even one Serb is not living. But Turkish won't be so in places like Prizren, Pristina, Gilan, Mitrovica, Vushtrri, etc," the minority group says.

Turks also want the right to receive an education at a Turkish university.

"If the Ahtisaari plan stays as it is, we will not have a democratic, multiethnic Kosovo, but an Albanian-Serb bi-ethnic Kosovo, which gives little rights to minorities," the NGOs say.

Some say the history of Turks in Kosovo dates back to the 14th century. The Turkish presence became visible in Kosovo after 1389, when the Turkish (Ottoman) and Serbian armies fought the battle of Kosovo, opening the way for the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans. After that, hundreds of thousands of Turks started living in the Balkans and Kosovo as well.

Turkish had been one of the official languages of Kosovo for decades, but was removed by UNMIK in 2000. The Turks of Kosovo hope to have its status reinstated as the process of determining the province's future winds to a close.

[Attila]

There is Prizren-Turkish association in Istanbul
most of them forced to migrate Turkey unfortunatelly

I hope this identity cleansing upon Turkish people abroad will come to an end without before it entirely exterminated.

great post thanx Bunjevac

[Balozi]

i think the plan is fine as it is. turks are only around 20.000. providing too much stuff for small minorities like the turkish one doesn't help in having a strong centralized government and all that stuff (including needless, exaggerated expenses). we're already worrying about giving too much rights to serbs

i think they are just trying to gain a momentum and make whatever they can. but i dont see why we should have turkish as an official language for 20.000 people (out of 2 millions) and also turkish schools where there aren't enough turks

if they want they can create private schools with the help of the turkish government, i dont think anyone objects that

[Attila]

what harm could it give to kosova if they recognize Turkish language official? since they have been living there long enough and survived many unpleasent things
after all they should gain some respect at least for thesake of historical heritage

local goverment could work with Turkish goverment and I am sure Republic of Turkey will help gladly and appreciate the constractive attitude

[Dardani]

yes there should be things to accomadate the turkish minority but kosova is a small and poor country. it's budget is only one billion dollars. it can't give to so many. the best option would be for the turkish government to fund it or at least help fund it and run the schools bilaterally with ankara and prishtina.

[Attila]

You are right I think Turkey should be more sensitive on this and support them financially

I will ask my department dean asistant in university if we can start a campaign for this

thanks

[Balozi]

what harm could it give to kosova if they recognize Turkish language official? since they have been living there long enough and survived many unpleasent things
after all they should gain some respect at least for thesake of historical heritage

local goverment could work with Turkish goverment and I am sure Republic of Turkey will help gladly and appreciate the constractive attitude
turkish is already an official language from what i know. im just against the state having to do so much for 20.000 people. it's not like it's a rich state anyway. as i said no one will object if turkey wants to fund some projects for your own connationals in kosovo

[RoboCop]

"If the Ahtisaari plan stays as it is, we will not have a democratic, multiethnic Kosovo, but an Albanian-Serb bi-ethnic Kosovo, which gives little rights to minorities," the NGOs say.


yeah, right, LOL :rofl:


i think the plan is fine as it is. turks are only around 20.000. providing too much stuff for small minorities like the turkish one doesn't help in having a strong centralized government and all that stuff (including needless, exaggerated expenses). we're already worrying about giving too much rights to serbs


What's the problem Balozi, ha? Now when you need to give something to your minorities, you have problem with that and you want to create "a strong centralized government". But when you think that your rights are in jepardy than you don't have any problem to pick up guns and go to war.:roll:

[***Sanya***]

What's the problem Balozi, ha? Now when you need to give something to your minorities, you have problem with that and you want to create "a strong centralized government". But when you think that your rights are in jepardy than you don't have any problem to pick up guns and go to war.:roll:

LOL:D

[nivbri]

The Serbs should be whatever connects them to Belgrade. They do not want Kosovo independence. Serbs are in danger. Turks are not. Serbs need to be separated from Albanian rule, Turks do not.

[Balozi]

What's the problem Balozi, ha? Now when you need to give something to your minorities, you have problem with that and you want to create "a strong centralized government". But when you think that your rights are in jepardy than you don't have any problem to pick up guns and go to war.
there is a big difference between a minority of 20.000 and a minority of 2.000.000 :)

i don't see why the kosovo government should make so much expenses for just 20.000 people

[israel]

Whatever they do, the government should do something. Those 20,000 people are (or will be) citizens of that country with full rights and responsibilities. They are Kosovars. And as such, they have a right to expect that their government will listen to their concerns and respond to their needs.

Welcome to nationhood Kosovo. First lesson, keeping minorities happy. :D

PS. Don't listen to the Serbs, they failed lesson one, LoL.

[RoboCop]

there is a big difference between a minority of 20.000 and a minority of 2.000.000 :)

i don't see why the kosovo government should make so much expenses for just 20.000 people

As you can see from the article when Kosovo was under Serbia they had their rights (language). Why did Serbia make expenses then, when Serbia is a tyrant to its minorities. And that was 20 000 people minority in 10 000 000 people country.

And speaking of a minority of 2 000 000 they had rights, it's another thing they wanted more.

[Dardani]

dont forget that their rights were taken.

[Balozi]

somehow you serbs always forget that the rights were all revoked. what's wrong with you people you suffer from amnesia or what

also we dont care what serbia did in respect with the turks. bigger country bigger budget and all that

[RoboCop]

somehow you serbs always forget that the rights were all revoked. what's wrong with you people you suffer from amnesia or what

also we dont care what serbia did in respect with the turks. bigger country bigger budget and all that

First of all you weren't even happy when you had all possible rights, and among widest autonomies on the planet. It wasn't enough for you. And you know it.

So don't give me that crap our rights were taken off cause that is just an excuse. And you may ask yourself why your rights were taken off. Just from the air?

BTW You are for strong centralised country, why then you have the problem if Serbia (incl. Kosovo) is strong centralised country? Talking about double standards,...

And also, nice comeback with that we don't care. When there is nothing more to say to defend ourselves we will just say: We don't care.

[Bunjevac]

i think the plan is fine as it is. turks are only around 20.000. providing too much stuff for small minorities like the turkish one doesn't help in having a strong centralized government and all that stuff (including needless, exaggerated expenses). we're already worrying about giving too much rights to serbs

i think they are just trying to gain a momentum and make whatever they can. but i dont see why we should have turkish as an official language for 20.000 people (out of 2 millions) and also turkish schools where there aren't enough turks

if they want they can create private schools with the help of the turkish government, i dont think anyone objects that


I wouldn't say they're 20,000. Given that nothing is certain about Kosovo regarding population. I've heard a Turk from Kosovo that in Sarajevo who after 1999 fled to Bosnia (he had family their) say that he believes the number of Turks in Albania is 100,000. He said that during the communist era the majority of Turks were listed as Albanians in cenuses and that in the 1991 census the majoirty of Turks boycotted the census due to Milosevic's discrimination against Muslim minorities. One thing he also said was that his family remaining in Kosovo say they lived better off before NATO came.

[Bunjevac]

what harm could it give to kosova if they recognize Turkish language official? since they have been living there long enough and survived many unpleasent things
after all they should gain some respect at least for thesake of historical heritage

local goverment could work with Turkish goverment and I am sure Republic of Turkey will help gladly and appreciate the constractive attitude

It wouldn't. Since the era of Tito Kosovo had three official languages - Serbian, Turkish and Albanian. The reason was that initialy many of the Albanians who lived in non-rural settings preffered to speak Turkish over Albanian in order to show that they were not primitive villagers. Also considering that even Milosevic (a man under who Serbian minorities suffered) never abolished Turkish language in Kosovo, the Albanians should make it the third official language.

[Bunjevac]

yes there should be things to accomadate the turkish minority but kosova is a small and poor country. it's budget is only one billion dollars. it can't give to so many. the best option would be for the turkish government to fund it or at least help fund it and run the schools bilaterally with ankara and prishtina.

Minorities who have a benefactor abroad should not be financed from the state budget, this is a particular reference to Serbs and Turks as Serbia and Turkey can do this. The small Croat minority might be able to recieve help from Croatia, but given the small size and no such desire from Croatia is likely won't happen.

Kosovo should focus more on possibly other minorities. Gorani don't really need to be financed by the Kosovo budget since Gorani would likely accept education from Serbia. For example the RAE (Roma, Ashkali, Egyptians) and Bosniaks (since I don't see Bosnia being able to support the Bosniak minority in Serbia) should have thier education financed by the Kosovo budget because RAE have no benefactors abroad and Bosnia is unlikely for political and economic reasons to do so.

[Balozi]

First of all you weren't even happy when you had all possible rights, and among widest autonomies on the planet. It wasn't enough for you. And you know it.
bunch of idiocies... we never had this "best autonomy on the planet" and when we had our autonomy we didn't cause trouble. it all started after you decided to play tough. "and you know it"


And you may ask yourself why your rights were taken off. Just from the air?
i thought that woud have been estabilished by now. how wrong :badday:


BTW You are for strong centralised country, why then you have the problem if Serbia (incl. Kosovo) is strong centralised country? Talking about double standards,...
i never said we should not give minority rights, i am just saying let's not overdo it

[RoboCop]

bunch of idiocies... we never had this "best autonomy on the planet" and when we had our autonomy we didn't cause trouble. it all started after you decided to play tough. "and you know it"

Hah, bunch of idiocies??? Do you even know what status did province of Kosovo get by SFRYugoslavian constitution 1974.


The 1974 Yugoslav Constitution, at the time the world's longest, greatly changed the constitutional setup within Yugoslavia. It increased the autonomy of Kosovo and Vojvodina, recognized Kosovo's Albanians for the first time as one of Yugoslavia's constituent peoples, and gave both autonomous provinces de facto veto power in the Serbian and Yugoslav parliaments as changes to their status could not be made without the consent of the two Provincial Assemblies. It also granted equal status to the Serbian, Albanian and Turkish languages and alphabets within Kosovo.
This created anomalous situation, sometimes said to be unique in world history, in which any of the provinces of Serbia could veto a decision pertaining to entire Serbia, while the parliament of Serbia could not influence decisions of the provincial parliaments. This led to central Serbia, which was not a political unit, being effectively under control of the provinces.

“ The Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo is an autonomous, socialist, democratic, socio-political and self-managing community of working people and citizens, equal Albanians, Montenegrins, Muslims, Serbs, Turks, and members of other nations and nationalities and ethnic groups, based on the power of and self-management by the working class and all working people. The Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo is a part of the Socialist Republic of Serbia and the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. ”

source: wiki

So if this is not very, very wide autonomy tell me what is??? And, if you aren't happy with this, and think it decrease your liberties, what do you suggest to do to be even wider?:?





i thought that woud have been estabilished by now. how wrong :badday:Yeah, yeah, like there weren't any riots from Albanians in the 80s and attacks on Serbs and Serbian property.



i never said we should not give minority rights, i am just saying let's not overdo itDude, it is not overdoing. Not even close. It's one of the basic rights to let minorities to use and get educated on their own language. There are billion of cases in the world where they have that right. And you don't even have to be majority in the area to get that right, it is enough around 30%, I think.;)

[Balozi]

So if this is not very, very wide autonomy tell me what is??? And, if you aren't happy with this, and think it decrease your liberties, what do you suggest to do to be even wider?
wtf are you changing your words now? you said it was "the best in the world" is it true or not. while i believe that one is in finland or some scandinavic country well i forgot which one


and gave both autonomous provinces de facto veto power in the Serbian and Yugoslav parliaments as changes to their status could not be made without the consent of the two Provincial Assemblies.
lol yea and we saw how much this applied :roll:


Yeah, yeah, like there weren't any riots from Albanians in the 80s and attacks on Serbs and Serbian property.
oh well there were attacks from serbs on albanians too. also i remember reading somewhere that a serb poisoned an albanian's dog. harrassment! >:(


Dude, it is not overdoing. Not even close. It's one of the basic rights to let minorities to use and get educated on their own language. There are billion of cases in the world where they have that right. And you don't even have to be majority in the area to get that right, it is enough around 30%, I think.
let's not talk with percentages cause they give false impressions. a 30% in london equals 3,3 million people and a 30% in some uknown district of kosovo may equal 100 people. why should the kosovar state (which is pretty broke) be obliged to build a whole school (including wages for personnel, books, stuff...) for 100 people? is it not overdoing it?

[RoboCop]

wtf are you changing your words now? you said it was "the best in the world" is it true or not. while i believe that one is in finland or some scandinavic country well i forgot which one

Ha ha ha, no, it is not true. I didn't say such a thing, only one who sad so is you Balozi. So wtf are YOU changing MY words? Here's what I wrote (and I even underlined it for you):


First of all you weren't even happy when you had all possible rights, and among widest autonomies on the planet.




lol yea and we saw how much this applied :roll:
What are you talking about? It applied ( ofc until Kosovo's autonomy was taken offO:-))




oh well there were attacks from serbs on albanians too. also i remember reading somewhere that a serb poisoned an albanian's dog. harrassment! >:(OMG, he should go to Haag.
Especcially because we can conclude it was ethnic motivated.



let's not talk with percentages cause they give false impressions. a 30% in london equals 3,3 million people and a 30% in some uknown district of kosovo may equal 100 people. why should the kosovar state (which is pretty broke) be obliged to build a whole school (including wages for personnel, books, stuff...) for 100 people? is it not overdoing it?So what it is equal 100 people??? That doesn't matter, you aren't giving them autonomy or something.

And one must ask himself, since apparently Kosovo isn't capable of doing one country's obligations, why should it get a status of one.:P

[Serbian Royalist]

Originally Posted by RC
And one must ask himself, since apparently Kosovo isn't capable of doing one country's obligations, why should it get a status of one.

ROFL LOL :D So true!!

Ever hear the "Kosovo will have a better future with a final settlement" YAAAAAHHHH RIIIIGGHHHTTT :roll: Cuz you know the Serbs are blocking all investment and help to Kosovo, man Balozi face it Kosovo is -

A) Not Albanian
B) NOT a country
C) is legally Serbian territory which is protected by the UN...and don't give me BS "OH Serbia left the UN when the bombing started" ya and so? We came back with Kosovo sill here, care to proceed?
D) wont see any legal "independence" any time of day soon......ever


Final settlement? pure BS why don't they "Settle" Cyprus which as been going on for how long? 2 decades...more?

Or Taiwan?

Or N/S Korea?

god get a life....


Geez you sure are dumbing down the # 20 000......wonder why you didn't think of that when the # 10 000 came up? :roll:...especially when that number applied to a total of oh about...10 000 000 and not 2 000 000 eh?

[albgene]

Turkish population will be accommodated and feel right at home as will all minorities in Kosovo.

Serbs on the other hand, having a bloody past, have every reason to feel suspicious of promises made by the Kosovo Government. They to this day, sing songs to Mladic and Milosevic and hold their pictures high in their living rooms. I think is in their best interest to let go of the past and move forward as there is no doubt anymore even for nutcase nationalists that Kosovo will become independent.

[Dardani]

god serbs are lossing it. let it go balozi. they'll use ANY excuse to block the inevitable. it's like trying to grasp for air 50,000 ft underwater.

people are seriously trying to compare the minorities of 20,000 in a 2 million populace state compared to albanians in the yugoslav times which were 2 million.

[RoboCop]

Turkish population will be accommodated and feel right at home as will all minorities in Kosovo.

Serbs on the other hand, having a bloody past, have every reason to feel suspicious of promises made by the Kosovo Government. They to this day, sing songs to Mladic and Milosevic and hold their pictures high in their living rooms. I think is in their best interest to let go of the past and move forward as there is no doubt anymore even for nutcase nationalists that Kosovo will become independent.


god serbs are lossing it. let it go balozi. they'll use ANY excuse to block the inevitable. it's like trying to grasp for air 50,000 ft underwater.

people are seriously trying to compare the minorities of 20,000 in a 2 million populace state compared to albanians in the yugoslav times which were 2 million.


Yeah, yeah, yeah, Serbs with bloody past, bla, bla, bla.... What this have to do with turkish minority?

And apparently all minorities wouldn't be accommodated, that is just what you albgene think, and you have no power in Kosovo. On the other hand we have a this guy Ahtisaari who says different.

Dardani I compared minority of 20 000 in a yugoslav times. Turkish minority had their language in Yugoslavia and now it has not. How about that.

[Dardani]

wow amazing, yugoslavia had a much larger budget which could accommodate small things like this. the official lnaguage status of turkish in all of kosova was removed by the UN in 2000. it became an official language only in municipalities where there were a considerable amount of turks such as prizren. nobody here has been saying there should not be any rights for them, simply that it's very difficult for the government to find funds since it's such a poor country.

anyway the part of serbia with a bloody past is true. it has among the bloodiest histories in the balkans but thats how it became so powerful while at the same time has gives it a bad name. just remember the most widely known albanians in the 20th century were mother theresa and rugova, the most widely known serbs were milosevic and mladic.

[RoboCop]

just remember the most widely known albanians in the 20th century were mother theresa and rugova, the most widely known serbs were milosevic and mladic.

Nikola Tesla is most known Serb in the 20th century, and aloso Gavrilo Princip is known.

And wow, Rugova!!!

[Balozi]

gavrilo princip never heared of him :P

so what's wrong with turkish not being official where turks don't live? :?

and also with not building turkish schools where there aren't enough turks?

i think you just found something to accuse us now and you're holding on it :D. dont let go! :victory:

[Dardani]

Nikola Tesla is most known Serb in the 20th century, and aloso Gavrilo Princip is known.

tesla ok respect. but wasn't Gavrilo Princip the guy who started world war 1 :D


And wow, Rugova!!!

he was named the ghandi of the balkans. thats quite an accomplishment coming from the powder keg of europe.

[RoboCop]

tesla ok respect. but wasn't Gavrilo Princip the guy who started world war 1 :D



Yeah! :D I'm just saying who can also be considered as one of most famous Serbs, and he is surely mentioned when someone study about 20th century.

And by that assasination he started not just ww1, but also process of unification of south Slavs (this is not my theory, but historians).

[Attila]

Why should the kosovar state (which is pretty broke) be obliged to build a whole school (including wages for personnel, books, stuff...) for 100 people? is it not overdoing it?

Why are you exaggrating it to a burden.
if the amount of Kosovan Turks are few it is still good for you. Ask for some help from Turkey or all you have to build 1 school or 2 is this such a burden that you should fight against?haven't they been paying taxes for centuries just like others did.
haven't they suffered when others suffered?

I don't think it is much to ask I am sure the funding can be figured in someways. however if others have a diffirent reason to oppose it we woud glad hear that

[Balozi]

er dude i never said we should not allow for turkish schools or anything like that. i just said that i agree with the plan that says no turkish schools where there aren't enough people. they won't remain without education they can go to an albanian school. if turkey wants to build and fund some turkish schools for where kosovo can't afford, thats fine

[DanMs]

Then we will open schools for Americans and French and Germans that are in Kosovo :bash:

Robocop dont forget Albanian rights were revoked by Milosevic during the 89-90's. He disregarded the Yugoslav constitution totally which lead to the death of Yugoslavia.

Even during Tito, nothing was perfect for Albanians. We were forced to live in a SouthSlav union, we complained but when those rights were revoked by your famous president Milosh then it went over the top. Not to mention ethnic cleansing and police brutality...

[..Jovan..]

And wow, Rugova!!!

Who's Rugova:S


We were forced to live in a SouthSlav union, we complained but when those rights were revoked by your famous president Milosh then it went over the top. Not to mention ethnic cleansing and police brutality...
Actually you weren't force to live anywhere, you could of returned to Albania but your fellow Albanian Enver Hoxa wouldn't let you out again.

[DanMs]

This is what we call "Either, or choice" argument fallacy in written and spoken discourse.

Their land is Kosovo so yes they should've returned to Albania with Kosovo aswell. ;)

An example i would give you to enlighten your knowledge is like saying "Bosnian Serbs are forced to live in Bosnia..." and a Bosniak muslim replies: "well they can move to Serbia"..

A second example is,,, Vojvodinians are force to live in Serbia,,, well they can move back to Hungary.
Why should they leave their ancient land? Because you are too dumb to run a country...

Hopefully you will learn your lessons the hard way when Kosovo is given indepedence... and become more mature about it.

[Knez_Nenad_Of_Serbia]

Ancient Land? Ridiculous. Look at Ottoman censuses such as the Decanski Charter written in the 14th century. The non-Serb (non-Serb doesn't necessarily mean Albanian, in fact, the 15th century Vlahs were more populous in Kosovo than Albanians) population doesn't exceed 1.8%. Now you are going to give me the recently invented crap regarding about how you are actually Illyrians. Save it, I honestly don't want to here it.


wow amazing, yugoslavia had a much larger budget which could accommodate small things like this. the official lnaguage status of turkish in all of kosova was removed by the UN in 2000. it became an official language only in municipalities where there were a considerable amount of turks such as prizren. nobody here has been saying there should not be any rights for them, simply that it's very difficult for the government to find funds since it's such a poor country.

anyway the part of serbia with a bloody past is true. it has among the bloodiest histories in the balkans but thats how it became so powerful while at the same time has gives it a bad name. just remember the most widely known albanians in the 20th century were mother theresa and rugova, the most widely known serbs were milosevic and mladic.

Kosovo isn't a country Dardani. However, it is ridiculously poor and Kosovo's only economy is the mass influx of aid it receives every day so criminal politicians can fill their pockets under the pretense of working towards independence and the better good of Kosovo. You do realize that if Kosovo does separate, the foreign aid coming into the country will likely rise and that means even more money can be funneled from the state treasuries into Kosovar Albanian politician's pockets. With all of the aid Kosovo has been receiving and the fact that it has NO PROGRESS ECONOMICALLY whatsoever, there has to be something going on.

The only reason Milosevic is the most well known Serbia of the 20th century is because the press actually cared to publicize and falsify information about him. However, now, he is no longer a horribly incompetent leader and a mass murder of the Bosniak people but only an incompetent leader (after all, he was pretty much acquitted of war crimes, too bad they killed him before that mongrel lived to see the day it happened).

Realistically, Tesla should be one of the most well known men in history period. After all, his contribution to science is so immense that the entire earth uses his technology every single day.


Who's Rugova:S

The former (:) ) idiot prime minister of Kosovo. Its kinda funny because right when Rugova and Milosevic reached a deal about re-instating Kosovo independence, the Kosovo Albanians began rebelling and he called it off.


Even during Tito, nothing was perfect for Albanians. We were forced to live in a SouthSlav union, we complained but when those rights were revoked by your famous president Milosh then it went over the top. Not to mention ethnic cleansing and police brutality...

Compared to your brethren in Albania, you lived like gods in Yugoslavia. You had huge autonomy, jobs, food, moderate amounts of cash (again, relative to Albania). You had it all in Yugoslavia considering that just across the order your kinsmen's food-deprived, overworked corpses were lining the streets! If anything, you should be praising Tito's Yugoslavia.

As Jovan stated, you could have left Yugoslavia. In fact, if it weren't for Albanians, it is likely Yugoslavia could have had a chance at survival (don't forget that a huge factor in the breakup was the Croatian and Slovene dissatisfaction with constantly paying for the upkeep of Kosovo.

[Dardani]

state of denial

[Balozi]

serbia is the best. we albanians are the worst (this doesnt mean kosovo is staying in serbia :D)

[DanMs]

As Jovan stated, you could have left Yugoslavia. In fact, if it weren't for Albanians, it is likely Yugoslavia could have had a chance at survival (don't forget that a huge factor in the breakup was the Croatian and Slovene dissatisfaction with constantly paying for the upkeep of Kosovo.

We wanted to leave Yugoslavia but also with our property back(Kosovo). Actually, I bet Tito himself wanted to give some of Kosovo away to Albania after WW2, the only thing stopping him was Serb dissatisfaction.

Croat and Slovene dissatisfaction didnt lead to breakup of Yugoslavia, it was Serb irrationality and impotence to negotiate. If you had negotiated like normal human beings maybe its breakup wouldnt had happened, and do not forget, it all started in Kosovo when Millosh gave that famous speech "Nobody will beat you anymore because the iron fist is in power" followed by many Serbs like you who blindly followed his nationalist rhetorics.

At the end, it all evens out and i'm glad Kosovo will gain indepedence so we dont have to deal with you people anymore, or at worst interacting at minimum about issues such as EU and minority rights.

[Knez_Nenad_Of_Serbia]

If you are talking about Slobo's speech at gazimestan then you are either lying or you have been duped because he never said that. Perhaps in another speech. Anyways, I loathe that man.

Tito probably would give away Kosovo. After all, he is a Serb-loathing piece of shit.

Its funny that you would mention negotiation because that is partially the reason Yugoslavia ended up engulfed in war. Slovenia and Croatia could have easily separated. However, they did so prematurely without reaching a consensus with the other republics. Thus, their separation was illegal.

[DanMs]

If you are talking about Slobo's speech at gazimestan then you are either lying or you have been duped because he never said that. Perhaps in another speech. Anyways, I loathe that man.

Tito probably would give away Kosovo. After all, he is a Serb-loathing piece of shit.

Its funny that you would mention negotiation because that is partially the reason Yugoslavia ended up engulfed in war. Slovenia and Croatia could have easily separated. However, they did so prematurely without reaching a consensus with the other republics. Thus, their separation was illegal.

I am lying?, there is video footage about it... O.o When he says to the Kosovo Serbs... "Nobody will beat you anymore" since they were complaining about the bad Albanians... after that followed a crackdown and revoking our rights...

And Tito was a smart man. He advocated division(that was the rumor) for Kosovo giving most of the territory to Albanian communists and partisan. Probably from your point of view thats better than "loosing" it all.


The death of Yugoslavia can be credited to Serbs in my view. You didnt respect the wishes of the other republic not to say that you started to dominate beyond your jurisdiction. It was you who didnt want to reach a consenus, who threaten with violence and war and military action.

Probably if you played it cool, none of it would fall aplace.

[..Jovan..]

This is what we call "Either, or choice" argument fallacy in written and spoken discourse.

Their land is Kosovo so yes they should've returned to Albania with Kosovo aswell. ;)

An example i would give you to enlighten your knowledge is like saying "Bosnian Serbs are forced to live in Bosnia..." and a Bosniak muslim replies: "well they can move to Serbia"..

A second example is,,, Vojvodinians are force to live in Serbia,,, well they can move back to Hungary.
Why should they leave their ancient land? Because you are too dumb to run a country...

Hopefully you will learn your lessons the hard way when Kosovo is given indepedence... and become more mature about it.

I am being more mature about it. Let's givr you an example:
Bosnian-Serbs and Croats don't like Bosnia, they have Croatia and Serbia. Albanians during the time of Yugoslavia didn't like the much more developed land than Albania, then they can go back to Albania. If that's the case does it not make everyone happy?

[RoboCop]

A second example is,,, Vojvodinians are force to live in Serbia,,, well they can move back to Hungary.
Why should they leave their ancient land? Because you are too dumb to run a country...

You are embarassing yourself.:doh: :doh:

Which is this nation of Vojvodinians which you mention in your post. Do you have any document that mention "Vojvodinian" nation, and from where do you conclude they want to go to Hungary???



We wanted to leave Yugoslavia but also with our property back(Kosovo). Actually, I bet Tito himself wanted to give some of Kosovo away to Albania after WW2, the only thing stopping him was Serb dissatisfaction.


I bet that also. And what do you taking Tito for? Some divine rightful power??? Please, get serious. He gave autonomy to Kosovo and Vojvodina only to weaken Serbia. I assure you there were other regions in Yugoslavia which could get autonomy easily, by that criteria, but they didn't.



I am lying?, there is video footage about it... O.o When he says to the Kosovo Serbs... "Nobody will beat you anymore" since they were complaining about the bad Albanians... after that followed a crackdown and revoking our rights...
Kosovo Serbs were constantly attacked in that decade by Albanians. That is a fact which all western media fails to mention, before they mention '87.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1459




The death of Yugoslavia can be credited to Serbs in my view. You didnt respect the wishes of the other republic not to say that you started to dominate beyond your jurisdiction.
What wishes of the other republics? Like....?
And can you say in which way Serbs sarted to dominate?
And I don't expect empty words, and usuall retoric like this, I expect facts.

[DanMs]

I bet that also. And what do you taking Tito for? Some divine rightful power??? Please, get serious. He gave autonomy to Kosovo and Vojvodina only to weaken Serbia. I assure you there were other regions in Yugoslavia which could get autonomy easily, by that criteria, but they didn't.
So now Kosovo doesnt even deserve the autonomy :bash:




Kosovo Serbs were constantly attacked in that decade by Albanians. That is a fact which all western media fails to mention, before they mention '87.

So yea, solution = ethnic cleansing because few serbs were complaining :whistling

And i dont see Tito as a divine power but he has shown to be a lot smarter than some retards that your nation has produced the last 15 years.



What wishes of the other republics? Like....?
And can you say in which way Serbs sarted to dominate?
And I don't expect empty words, and usuall retoric like this, I expect facts.

It's not rhetoric i see it general accepted history.

But as Milosevic began his rise to power, he jettisoned this understanding and began to take decisions that served only the Serbs’ interests, flagrantly disregarding the protests of Yugoslavia’s other nationalities.

Watch Death of Yugoslavia documentary for moreover.

[RoboCop]

So yea, solution = ethnic cleansing because few serbs were complaining :whistling

Don't act dumb, war along with ethnic cleansing will come only later, not because of that. And Albanians started riots in 1981.
Yeah, few Serbs, could I say that in years to come few albanians were complaining:roll:



And i dont see Tito as a divine power but he has shown to be a lot smarter than some retards that your nation has produced the last 15 years.You don't know nothing about him, you're just prasing him because of Kosovo.
Yes, he was excellent and smart politician and that's it.



It's not rhetoric i see it general accepted history.

But as Milosevic began his rise to power, he jettisoned this understanding and began to take decisions that served only the Serbs’ interests, flagrantly disregarding the protests of Yugoslavia’s other nationalities.

Watch Death of Yugoslavia documentary for moreover.Dude, I watched enough documentaries and news and I lived death of Yugoslavia so I don't need to watch nothing for morever.
And you didn't answer my question, didn't gave any proofs or facts just line from documentary which repeats your words.

[Darien]

So Robocop are you saying that the Kosovo Albanians in the last 50 years, had all the freedom and rights as any other Serb? Are you saying that their were allowed to freely study in their native language as they wished (forget about making it an official language)? Are you saying that as any Serbian citizen they could easily get a license to carry a gun? Are you saying that the Kosovo Albanians never faced any racial attacks from serbian people? The war between Serbs and kosovo albanians did not start in 1999, but centuries ago.
I'm shocked at your argument that Kosovo albanians had all the rights and freedom that they needed.
Did you ever go to Kosova? Have you ever lived in a country where the police in your city streets abuses you physically and verbally???
Please drop this subject, because you are making some irrational claims here.

[RoboCop]

For most of yours questions I could ask all that, but put Kosovo Serbs instead of Albanians.

For that gun question, really don't know what was gun policy back then, but it wasn't Serbian citizen, it was Yugoslavian so they made the law.

And no minority on Balkans or in the world has in practice the same rights as majority.

And I'll drop the subject. For one reason only and that is because I'm tired of spinning around Kosovo issue here, and have lost interest to do so. Whatever UN decides good luck with that, and we'll se how it will be.

[Darien]

For most of yours questions I could ask all that, but put Kosovo Serbs instead of Albanians.


Why putting Kosovo Serbs instead of that???? The Kosovo Serbs weren't the ones being abused by the government.



For that gun question, really don't know what was gun policy back then, but it wasn't Serbian citizen, it was Yugoslavian so they made the law.

Regardless what the gun policy MIGHT have been officially - there was only one policy for Albanians: No albanian was allowed to posses any sort of arms. People were killed and tortured for this.



And no minority on Balkans or in the world has in practice the same rights as majority.


Now you officially embarrased yourself - but it's ok you see now why Serbia lost Kosovo.



And I'll drop the subject. For one reason only and that is because I'm tired of spinning around Kosovo issue here, and have lost interest to do so. Whatever UN decides good luck with that, and we'll se how it will be.

I'm glad you're dropping it, and yes it will be much better than being under our beloved Serbian govt.

[Makeveli]

Regardless what the gun policy MIGHT have been officially - there was only one policy for Albanians: No albanian was allowed to posses any sort of arms. .

Any proof for your claims .... :?

[Alalzia]

I am not a Jugo specialist but how smart is to accuse an ethnicity when the government are the oppressors ?
Under the same logic i should blame the Pakis for me not getting significant wage rise this year.

[RoboCop]

Why putting Kosovo Serbs instead of that???? The Kosovo Serbs weren't the ones being abused by the government.
No, they were abused by Kosovo majority.



Regardless what the gun policy MIGHT have been officially - there was only one policy for Albanians: No albanian was allowed to posses any sort of arms. People were killed and tortured for this.
So now you are telling that neither you know what was gun policy. Then why did you wrote about that in the way someone would assume you know?

And I guess all Albanian weapons just dropped from the sky in 1998, 1999.

[Dardani]

the weapons came from albania. why do you think the kla formed in 98, think what happened in albania in 97 ;)

[Dardani]

No, they were abused by Kosovo majority.

i'm sure there was some abuse as that was the case of all civilians in communist countries. can't be compared to ethnic cleansing. even then the serbs began fights with the police when milosevic came to show him their reaction. after one such incident he said his famous speech that he wont let an albanian ever touch them again.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9bi0ziA9diw

[RoboCop]

the weapons came from albania. why do you think the kla formed in 98, think what happened in albania in 97 ;)

Kla wasn't formed in 87. I've already put a link of the article saying that it was formed before in Macedonia.

Anyway, you don't have any proof that goverment was giving guns to Serbs and denying it to the Albanians, nor you know what was gun policy.
I think that you weren't even allowed to carry a gun.


i'm sure there was some abuse as that was the case of all civilians in communist countries. can't be compared to ethnic cleansing. [/url]

I'm not talking about goverment abuse in communist countries. Neither I'm making any paralels to the ethnic cleansing in the 90s.
I'm talking about 80s.

http://emperors-clothes.com/archive/timesnov187.htm

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_32_35/ai_55052239

http://members.tripod.com/~sarant_2/ksm81-1.html

http://members.tripod.com/~sarant_2/ksm82-1.html

http://members.tripod.com/~sarant_2/ksm82-3.html

http://members.tripod.com/~sarant_2/ksm86-3.html

http://members.tripod.com/~sarant_2/ksm86-6.html

http://members.tripod.com/~sarant_2/ksm87-7.html

[Darien]

Kla wasn't formed in 87. I've already put a link of the article saying that it was formed before in Macedonia.

Anyway, you don't have any proof that goverment was giving guns to Serbs and denying it to the Albanians, nor you know what was gun policy.
I think that you weren't even allowed to carry a gun.



Hey Mr. knowItAll why do you argue about things on which you don't have the slightest idea???
KLA was not formed in 87. There was another underground organization based out of Macedonia which was formed in the late 80s ~ early 90s. This organization did in fact help the KLA in different ways. However KLA was formed in 98. Most of the arms from Albania went to KLA along with help from NATO itself and the US intel. The Macedonian organization that you are referring to has a different name and is different from KLA. KLA was an army not organization. KLA - Kosova Liberation Army Get it????
The other one is an albanian organization which has an entirely different name.

Then you go on to say that we don't have proof that the government was denying guns to Albanians and giving it to Serbs.

Listen *edited*, the serb military has killed numerous family people if the family didn't give up a gun....any gun. These stories were very common for years. Traditionally it has been an Albanian custom for each house to have a gun. So the serb police and/or military would require for each house to turn in a gun, even if they didn't actually have one. I know of people who had to go somewhere, get a gun simply for the sake of turning a gun in. I'm sure in Serbia proper, you could certainly have a gun with a license. I can't believe that you try and support these people who in a cruel manner not only oppressed the Albanians in kosovo, but worst of all committed crimes on their own kind. I'm appalled by your reactions, but I guess you must be one of them.

[RoboCop]

Hey Mr. knowItAll why do you argue about things on which you don't have the slightest idea???
KLA was not formed in 87. There was another underground organization based out of Macedonia which was formed in the late 80s ~ early 90s. This organization did in fact help the KLA in different ways. However KLA was formed in 98. Most of the arms from Albania went to KLA along with help from NATO itself and the US intel. The Macedonian organization that you are referring to has a different name and is different from KLA. KLA was an army not organization. KLA - Kosova Liberation Army Get it????
The other one is an albanian organization which has an entirely different name.
So, you're admitting that they are connected and that this earlier organization helped KLA. So it is possible that KLA was formed out of some members from this macedonian organization. And why was that organization even formed? Did Albanians planned to break war in Macedonia in 80's and then the've waited 10 years.




Then you go on to say that we don't have proof that the government was denying guns to Albanians and giving it to Serbs.
And still in the text that follow you gave me no proof. Just hear-say stories.:doh:
Dude, that's not considered to be a proof.
And albanians could get a gun easily/hard as anyone. After all Kosovo had a wide autonomy and that thing couldn't be controlled form Serbia (and I'm sorry it couldn't).
And bad luck if albanians traditionally carry a gun, if you want to live in a country you should apply all of its laws, esspecially something like this. So if they didn't have liscence it is good it was taken from them.
If mine custom is to eat people...O.o
But as I said, you gave me some stories, nothing more. Did you see that list of articles about ethnic attacks on Serbs in 80's? You didn't reply on that, did you? Now that is a valid article and proof.


I can't believe that you try and support these people who in a cruel manner not only oppressed the Albanians in kosovo, but worst of all committed crimes on their own kind. I'm appalled by your reactions, but I guess you must be one of them.

Oh, God, you can't belive that???:O
I will not be able to sleep tonight because you think so.
Your opinion is so important to me.;)


Listen moron,...
BTW If those Albanians who applied to get gun liscence have the same mentality as you Darien, I'm sure that they didn't pass psychiatrist, so that was the reason they didn't get it.
You will not be taken seriously here if you continue to acting like this in every thread you are participating.

[..Jovan..]

Listen moron,...
No insulting, i'm sure many people on this forum have something worse to say to you but refrain.

[Darien]

So, you're admitting that they are connected and that this earlier organization helped KLA. So it is possible that KLA was formed out of some members from this macedonian organization. And why was that organization even formed? Did Albanians planned to break war in Macedonia in 80's and then the've waited 10 years.


Yes I admitted it. Yes KLA was formed out of some member probably and these members are not only from Macedonia but also albania and kosovo. So what the hell is your point???? These people, did not necessarily plan to break out a war but made efforts for lobbying for ex.



And still in the text that follow you gave me no proof. Just hear-say stories.:doh:
Dude, that's not considered to be a proof.
And albanians could get a gun easily/hard as anyone.

So how is some shady article considered to be proof??? If there was any ethnic casualties on Serbs it was because your government heavily oppressed the Albanians. The stories that I'm telling you are widespread all over Kosovo. The people know them. Did you expect Milosevic to keep notes of all these killings and then make them available to me so I can show you the documents as proof????



After all Kosovo had a wide autonomy and that thing couldn't be controlled form Serbia (and I'm sorry it couldn't).

Kosovo had a wide autonomy.

Hmm I like that line. At least that's what all of you have been told. But this wide autonomy you speak of would at least allow them to freely learn in their own language and watch the tv media in albanian wouldn't it???? Obviously you've never been in kosovo and have been eating Milo's shit, for you all believed everything you were told about kosovo.




And bad luck if albanians traditionally carry a gun, if you want to live in a country you should apply all of its laws, esspecially something like this. So if they didn't have liscence it is good it was taken from them.
If mine custom is to eat people...O.o
But as I said, you gave me some stories, nothing more. Did you see that list of articles about ethnic attacks on Serbs in 80's? You didn't reply on that, did you? Now that is a valid article and proof.


Families traditionally have carried a gun, yes.
And we didn't want to live in your country. You tried to take part of our country.
The stories that I gave you are true stories. Serbian royalists can write thousands of articles full of crap without proving anything.
I can even give you a website:
www.serbianna.com Check it out you'll like it.




BTW If those Albanians who applied to get gun liscence have the same mentality as you Darien, I'm sure that they didn't pass psychiatrist, so that was the reason they didn't get it.
You will not be taken seriously here if you continue to acting like this in every thread you are participating.

Yes you are very convincing with your donkey logic.
We albanians are psycho. You are right. That MUST have been the reason. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Balozi]

darien please stop using names, it's not allowed

[Darien]

Sorry Balozi, this guy is pushing my buttons!

[HairyandHorny]

is anybody aware of the official turkish stance over the independance of kosovo?

i d guess that they shouldnt be too much for the independance, given that they also could face a situation similar to the what the serbians faced

[Balozi]

i think they are pro