Alexander the Great

[Admin]

Lately everybody's trying to lay a hand on him. Albania, Bulgaria, FYR Macedonia and of course Greece they all claim that he was of their kind. The way i see it he was probably mixed.

Albanians say he was half Albanian because his mother, Olympia, was Illyrian (however, all Illyrians were not Albanian), and because his soldiers were all Illyrian. FYR Macedonians say that he was Macedonian, so there's nothing to discuss. Greeks say he was Greek because he said so.

Here also evolves the question if today's FYR Macedonians are descendants of the ancient Macedonians. And if they are, should Greece keep using the name "Macedonia" for one of its administrative regions? If they are not, why is there such a fuss about the name? Can't they find another name?

[Nikolay_bg]

It's not tue that bulgarians claimed Alexander as bulgarian!!! Alexander The Great is obviosuly a greek.Please don't charge bulgarians here! We've not stollen foreign history!

[Admin]

Hello, i am not accusing Bulgaria of stealing the history of other nations. But i have read here and there some Bulgarian claims that Macedonians and Bulgarians are the same people, or at least a part of them is.

So according to this claim, Alexander could be Bulgarian. This is what i meant. :)

[Segestan]

Greetings


The Greek position on Alexander is clearly one taken by them, that is without an clear, without an honest understanding of the Macedonian Kings Social role he played in Greek history. The Macedonian King and his supporting caste of upper class Macedonian Noblemen- families , they during the reign of Alexander played in the founding of what was to become Greek History. Alexander, son of King Phillip, was first a political conqueror, a brutal , young arrogant tyrant , a King who liberated by the sword. Who gave unto himself the sole rights of personal Divination.
The only acts that Alexander the Great did was to go too war. That he did do with a heroic , tactician mentality. In fact the only peoples to personally see a gain of sorts , by their coming into contact with this conquering young King of Macedonia and his policies, his vain glory seeking ideas as policy, was most likely the Jews of Palestine , that he had then resettled in his Newly founded Great City of Alexandria in Egypt. But Macedonia , his own homeland, the home of his fathers Kingdom , they payed a very high price for his glorious campaigns in Greece and the East , in war loses alone of some of their finest soldiers lost fighting his wars in the east. To say nothing of the terror put on those he conquered and enslaved.
Alexander as a pupil of Aristotle , his tutor, Was very well educated in many of the ideas of the noble classes of his time. Educated in the best science , politics, morality and soul searching ideas then thought. He had a role as a Macedonian King expected of him to act out. A role that was to establish Macedonia and it’s upper class their ideas of Correctness. His expected role as King , must surely have been to Strengthen the Argead Kingdom. To do this first through his conquest of the Greek peninsula, by defeating the slave owning land barons. To establish democracy in Greece. This he attempt to do, but Alexander was a hated conquering Macedonian. In fact after his death the Greek population revolted against the Macedonian rulers. He even went so far in his vain glory seeking that after conquering Persia he tried to force his Macedonian troops to abase themselves before the King by prostration. He had become fully ‘ Orientalized’.
He was in many was a trader to the ideas that were ideas upheld by those who had supported and empowered him. The Macedonian Noble Class, and even the Greek Noble class that wanted Democratic ideas fully established. The nephew of Aristotle : Callisthenes who was the leading teacher of the Academy of Aristotle and his Royal Pages they conspired to kill Alexander for his treasonous behavior in the East. Their plot was discovered and Alexander had the’Pageboys’ and Callesthenes executed. Alexander a pupil of the Peripatetic School of Philosophy had clearly lost the support of the educated class.
Maybe taking claim to the heritage of Alexander the Great should be left to fools? The Claim to Macedonia as a Title should be left to those peoples who seek to reestablish what Alexander was suppose to accomplish as a Great Macedonian King?

Regards,

[shqiponja]

Segestan, i could not agree with you more. I always feel kind of sad when people from Albania (my country) try to prove that Alexander was Albanian. And i wonder. Do we want him to be Albanian? What good did Alexander bring to the world? Except maybe the famous library of Alexandria?

What kind of example does one who killed his friend give? After all, a national hero is like an example for all citizens of that country, am i right? Alexander was a great general, but that's it. Greeks, who claim so much of the world's civilization, could definately find a better national hero in my opinion.

And the other nations who claim Alexander thinking that it would be "cool" if he was one of their kind, are just kind of silly.

[Segestan]

Greetings shqiponja

Albania could find many Great persons as national heroes. The list goes back 1,ooo's of years. Good moral minded idealist who seeked to improve the human condition through bettering life rather than destroying.
However: Alexander did do a great deed of sort, in his short life , one that is not acredited of him. Through his campaigns he did manage to hold back the Persian Empire from their own brand of territorial wants and tyranny. In fact Macedonia had conspired with Persia in the Persian invasion of europe. Macedonia aided the hated Greek land lords in their wars with Persia. Persia was the big kid on the block. Land barrons were the laws the slave owners. They needed war to gain power and subjects. Macedonia and Alexander did help at least temporally to stop this trade.
They , the educated of the times attempted to establish Democracy.This was a monumental effort by moral minded idealist. These people are the real Heroes.

Just the fact that Rome in the Second Macedonian War retook Greece from the Macedonian rulers in 200 BC , which was over 130 years after Alexanders campaigns, shows that Not all history is written with a clear picture of those times events.

Thanks for your response.


regards,

[Admin]

I think Albania's national hero, Gjergj Kastrioti, is a pretty strong personality worthy of being a national hero. He was a man who is known from the love for his people and the fight to defend his homeland, and not for expanding his country's borders. This, in my eyes, is a major plus.

Also, i don't know if this could be an exageration, but i think that he prevented the Ottoman empire from spreading in all weakened Europe. The Ottoman empire was stronger than ever at that time. They had just conquered Constantinople, and after that, the rest of Europe would seem like an easy target.

Can you imagine how the world would be today, if all Europe was under Ottoman occupation for like 400 years? :shock: :?

As for Alexander, i think the bad thing about him is that he became arrogant, and power corrupted him. I think Pericles of Athens would be a good national hero for Greece. But then again, the Greek people has already decided.

[CmKc]

Can you imagine how the world would be today, if all Europe was under Ottoman occupation for like 400 years? :shock: :?
.
It will be better than today. I would ask you a questions, while balkans, and middle east under Ottoman empire, were there any war at that time. Everyone were living in peace, everone lives their religion. No one say them, change your religion, be a muslim, or another.
I think, you re under England Americans,, what they say you, you do what they said.

[Admin]

Actually i was referring to scientific and cultural evolution. As you understand, occupation doesn't help a country evolve in any way.

So with 400-500 years of occupation, Europe (and possibly the whole world) would be much more primitive than it is today.

[CmKc]

It is certainly primitive than today. But peoples need a very strong otority. In the past that otority were us, not us maybe, Ottomans are not Turk, it was a multi national, an empire.
Today the otority is E.U. but it is democratic as the condition of days.

[shqiponja]

I think we are kind of out of topic. :P

Hm, i wonder what will happen if Macos try to make Alexander national hero (if they haven't already). I also wonder what will Greece say about it. I mean they can't have the same national hero. Things are starting to get kind of comic in our region. :D

[Admin]

Actually i was just wondering about that. Who is Macedonia's national hero? Someone please enlighten us.

[Phoenix]

Everyone were living in peace, everone lives their religion. No one say them, change your religion, be a muslim, or another.

well...do you know any war, while Roman or Byzantine Empire were rulling? They were always conflicts in the inside(and in Ottoman Empire.. Don't forget that Ottomans in Greece, at 1821-22, raised with the Greeks against Ottoman Empire, because they wanted to take land, if the region of Greece would be free). But that's only conflicts.. not wars. Not in Roman or Byzantine Empire, neither in Ghekins Han (how do they spell this :wink: ) Empire...

It is logical. An Empire, while it stands, can control all the regions, peacefully. When it begins to fall then the wars begin..

[airwings]

In 324 BC, after the establishment of his state, Alexander the Great gave an oath to the officers and soldiers of his state. The oath was also addressed to all the races that lived in the territories of his empire, it was given near Babylon (in Opis) and the philosopher Eratosthenes passes it to us.
By the reading the oath one can quickly realize how much Hellenic Alexander felt, and how proud he was of his Hellenic origin:

"I wish all of you, now that the wars are coming to an end, to live happily, in peace. All mortals from now on will live like one people, united, and peacefully working towards a common prosperity. You should regard the whole world as your country, a country where the best govern, with common laws, and no racial distinctions.
I do not separate people, as many narrow minded others do, into Hellenics and barbarians. I am not interested in the origin or race of citizens.
I only distinguish them on the basis of their virtue. For me each foreigner is a Hellenic and each bad Hellenic is a barbarian. If ever there appear differences among you, then you must not resolve them by taking to arms, you should resolve them in peace. If need be, I will act as your negotiator.
You must not think of God as an authoritarian ruler, but you should consider him as a common father, so that your conduct resembles the uniform behavior of brothers who belong to the same family. For my part, I consider all, whether they be white or black, equal. And I would like you to be not only subject of my common-wealth, but also participants and partners. You should regard the Oath we have taken tonight as a Symbol of Love."

Alexander I - Opis (324 BC)

[airwings]

The speech of Alexander I, when he was admitted to the Olympic games

"Men of Athens...
Had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Hellas I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself Hellene by descent, and I would not willingly see Hellas exchange freedom for slavery....

If you prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the Hellenic cause, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians.

I am Alexander of Macedon."

(Herodotus, The Histories, 9.45)

[Anti-Hero]

didnt Mother Teresa come from macedonia i think shes their national hero even though she was i believe albanian right? which i think fits them perfectly for being a relative peaceful nation

agree or disagree?

[airwings]

didnt Mother Teresa come from macedonia i think shes their national hero even though she was i believe albanian right? which i think fits them perfectly for being a relative peaceful nation

agree or disagree?

Mother Teresa and Great Alexander :!: :!: :!: :!:
Wrong Topic

[vlado_g]

Bulgaria has nothing to do with Alexander The Great!And it's a lie that we have claimed to be Bulgarian.Alexander is neither greek nor macedonian!!
Greeks claimed to be their hero on the fact that he said he is greek.But at that time around 300 bc 'greek' was a word for knowledge,wisedom.
And these macedonians who are 100% pure bulgarians has nothing in common with the macs then.They are just different.That's all :)

[airwings]

Greeks claimed to be their hero on the fact that he said he is greek.But at that time around 300 bc 'greek' was a word for knowledge,wisedom.
Great Alexander he said Hellenes actually not Greeks and this is the right word.

And these macedonians who are 100% pure bulgarians has nothing in common with the macs then.They are just different.That's all :)
100% are different because the present residents are not live in the Macedonia region (actually only the 1/4 from the FYROM belongs to it) and of course the Slav origin (Bulgarian maybe , because the present lanquage is a Bulgar Dialect)

[GENEX]

He looks cute but he is gay :)

[GENEX]

didnt Mother Teresa come from macedonia i think shes their national hero even though she was i believe albanian right? which i think fits them perfectly for being a relative peaceful nation

agree or disagree?

if all americans were cute like Walt Disney :)

[Attila]

The topic was Alexander the great which doens't concern me...

however I am sure aobut that according to an Albanian firend of mine

Mother Terressa was Albanian how ironic isn't it :lol:

PS: if I were a Macedonian(Fyromian) I would really be pissed of in this forum

[airwings]

He looks cute but he is gay :)
Now you are and adrologist, if when we find the body go and examin his ass.

[GENEX]

He looks cute but he is gay :)
Now you are and adrologist, if when we find the body go and examin his ass.

i think you are more likely to examine his ass

[airwings]

I am not the "doctor genetics".
Actually you never did understand his work.

[airwings]

PS: if I were a Macedonian(Fyromian) I would really be pissed of in this forum
Why Attila?

[Attila]

cuz people here are talking about them as if they were produced in labrotaries
bulgarian guy comes and says they are 100% bulgarian
greeks are like cursing them just cuz of the name o their nation and country

I mean I couldn't stand it if was a macedionian I wouldn't let anyone speak like that

anyway it doesn't concern me you don't have to answer it is just my opinnion

[airwings]

Attila we agree today for a 2nd time.

cuz people here are talking about them as if they were produced in labrotaries
Artificial politician laboratories(my comment) not yours

[Attila]

I have celebrate it I will get 2 bottles of wine and send one of them to you so we can celbrate it at the same time :P :P

[airwings]

Thanks for the wine. *1st :lol: :lol:

[GENEX]

If they have anything to do with Alexander Makedonski - they will come here and kick your asses :D

[airwings]

Who is Alexander Makedonski GENEX? The Slav ?

Except if you talk for the Hellene Alaxander the Makedon
"For I myself am by ancient descent a Hellene, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery." (Herod. IX, 45, 2 [Loeb])

[GENEX]

Who is Alexander Makedonski GENEX? The Slav ?

Except if you talk for the Hellene Alaxander the Makedon
"For I myself am by ancient descent a Hellene, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery." (Herod. IX, 45, 2 [Loeb])

He is the son of Philip of Macedonia :)

Philip II of Macedonia ruled from 359-336 B.C.E. Without the military and political efforts of Philip, Alexander would never have been as successful as he was. According to Bosworth, Philip's work with the Macedonian army and establishment of alliances with the Balkan peoples gave both himself and Alexander the resources necessary to carry out such conquests.
Philip came to power in 359 B.C.E. after the Macedonians had just suffered a defeat at the hands of the Illyrians.

http://wso.williams.edu/~junterek/philip.htm

[Balozi]

Pausanias had sought revenge from Philip because apparently he, the king, and another man named Pausanias were involved in a love triangle. The first Pausanias was a handsome bodyguard of Philip's, whom Philip enjoyed very much. Soon the second Pausanias seemed to replace the first as a favorite of the king's. The first Pausanias called the second one a whore, and, with his pride wounded, the second Pausanias gave his life up for the king by taking blows meant for Philip in a battle with the Illyrians.
was everyone gay back then?

[airwings]

That's nice GENEX , you talked for the real Alexander.
And as consern his father , from your sourse

Then, with the support of all Greece, Philip declared war on Persia to retaliate for the Persian invasion of Greece several generations before
and from Herodotus source

The country by the sea which is now called Macedonia... Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his forefathers, who were originally Temenidae from Argos"
(Thucydides 99,3 (Loeb, C F Smith)
and from (Hammond, The Macedonian State, p. 9).

Before Phillip II, Macedonia was divided into small typical city-states having adopted the same concept of internal civic structure as the southern Greek city-states. Each Macedonian city-state or area had its own main city and government. Philip II united the Macedonian city-states by instituting and establishing a Homeric style of a Kingdom, maintaining the infrastructure of the smaller city-states with the various kings paying tribute to the king of all Macedonia. We know this from the fact that at one time the king of Lyncestis (present day Bitola - Florina) was Alexander. The point that has to be made clear is that a man’s first loyalty was to his city, not to the King of Macedonia.
Cheers Lady

[GENEX]

Pausanias had sought revenge from Philip because apparently he, the king, and another man named Pausanias were involved in a love triangle. The first Pausanias was a handsome bodyguard of Philip's, whom Philip enjoyed very much. Soon the second Pausanias seemed to replace the first as a favorite of the king's. The first Pausanias called the second one a whore, and, with his pride wounded, the second Pausanias gave his life up for the king by taking blows meant for Philip in a battle with the Illyrians.
was everyone gay back then?

no, like not everyone is gay now, but at that time it was O.K. to be gay. Homosexual Deadly Sin (modern languge - they kill you) - with christianity.

Frederic The Great was also gay.

I think most man are more gay than strait any way.

[GENEX]

That's nice GENEX , you talked for the real Alexander.
And as consern his father , from your sourse

Then, with the support of all Greece, Philip declared war on Persia to retaliate for the Persian invasion of Greece several generations before
and from Herodotus source

The country by the sea which is now called Macedonia... Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his forefathers, who were originally Temenidae from Argos"
(Thucydides 99,3 (Loeb, C F Smith)
and from (Hammond, The Macedonian State, p. 9).

Before Phillip II, Macedonia was divided into small typical city-states having adopted the same concept of internal civic structure as the southern Greek city-states. Each Macedonian city-state or area had its own main city and government. Philip II united the Macedonian city-states by instituting and establishing a Homeric style of a Kingdom, maintaining the infrastructure of the smaller city-states with the various kings paying tribute to the king of all Macedonia. We know this from the fact that at one time the king of Lyncestis (present day Bitola - Florina) was Alexander. The point that has to be made clear is that a man’s first loyalty was to his city, not to the King of Macedonia.
Cheers Lady

so we are back to our differences. i claim a man is his DNA and you claim a man is whom he sold his soul to :)

[airwings]

I think most man are more gay than strait any way.
If a woman make this kind of statement there are two thinks to come over

1- She has never meet the love in her life.
2 -She is Lesbia

[GENEX]

I think most man are more gay than strait any way.
If a woman make this kind of statement there are two thinks to come over

1- She never has known the love in her life.
2 -She is Lesbia

i said most, not all :)

[airwings]

I think most man are more gay than strait any way.
If a woman make this kind of statement there are two thinks to come over

1- She never has known the love in her life.
2 -She is Lesbia

i said most, not all :)
I saw it, the men are usefull and for the reproduction

And we are out of the topic.
If you have emotional questions put them in diffrent topic

[GENEX]

I think most man are more gay than strait any way.
If a woman make this kind of statement there are two thinks to come over

1- She never has known the love in her life.
2 -She is Lesbia

i said most, not all :)
I saw it, the men are usefull and for the reproduction

And we are out of the topic.
If you have emotional questions put them in diffrent topic

ah ah ah - we were talking about Ace and i thought he looks nice but he was gay. what is wrong with that. if Ace is topic - why not talk abut him from other human aspects?

by the way - Frederic The Great was also gay. also known not only by beeing a great military leader but also the father of democracy in west. Is it the feminine side inside themselves that gives that extra kick to great personality or sexual repulsion towards oposite sex?

[Admin]

This is a discussion about Alexander, not about the effects of gayness. So stay on topic! :P

[Davor]

Who is Alexander Makedonski GENEX? The Slav ?

In post WWII school system in YU, "Alexander the Great" was replaced with "Alexander the Macedonian". Many people don't even know that he is known to the rest of the world as "Alexander the Great".

And about 0.0...01% Serbs know that during Ottoman times and long before establishing "Macedonian" nation, he was twice called "Alexander the Serb".

[GENEX]

This is a discussion about Alexander, not about the effects of gayness. So stay on topic! :P

as admin - you should know better.

there are historical books about famous people that go very well and very far into their private lifes and (especialy) sexuality.

why is this considered wrong in the case of this person?

[airwings]

This is a discussion about Alexander, not about the effects of gayness. So stay on topic! :P
I agree with this.


there are historical books about famous people that go very well and very far into their private lifes and (especialy) sexuality.
why is this considered wrong in the case of this person?

Which are the historical books and also the source (s) of them that mention the "especially sexuality" of the Great Alexander?


why is this considered wrong in the case of this person?
Why FYROM government or non-government org didn't respond as consern the menioned sexuality of the Great Alexander (after the Hollywood film)?

In post WWII school system in YU, "Alexander the Great" was replaced with "Alexander the Macedonian". Many people don't even know that he is known to the rest of the world as "Alexander the Great
Not only the school system but all the educational system.

[GENEX]

Why FYROM government or non-government org didn't respond as consern the menioned sexuality of the Great Alexander (after the Hollywood film)?

In post WWII school system in YU, "Alexander the Great" was replaced with "Alexander the Macedonian". Many people don't even know that he is known to the rest of the world as "Alexander the Great
Not only the school system but all the educational system.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Maybe they didn't know that you would be interested in their respond. if they knew about you, i'm sure they would have said something :lol: :lol:

By the way - why is Joan of Arc - Jovanka Orleanka?
http://www.knjigainfo.com/index.php?gde=@http%3A//www.knjigainfo.com/pls/sasa/bip.text%3Ftid%3D24300@

Historians all agree that Alexander had homosexual trysts, with a boyhood companion named Hephaestion, and with a Persian eunuch named Bagoas. He also married Roxane and fathered a child with her, as well as taking two other wives, Barsine and Parysatis, though the validity of these marriages is debatable.

"Homosexuality was very natural," Cartledge said. "Sex did not define you, the way it defines us. You could have sex with whomever you wanted to have sex with. There simply was no inherent taboo against it."

http://www.azcentral.com/ent/movies/articles/1117alexander17.html

[airwings]

I have asked you to show me your "historical sources" and bring me here:

1- A site with out any source just the conclusions (if also this is right because are written in of the Slav languages) and sign from someone Branislav RADIVOJŠA

2- An article from someone Michael Browning with out any source just generilizes thinks and comment the life of the Great Aleaxander via Oliver Stone movie

3- From your second link Cartledge said for the Philip was the most brilliant military commander in Greek history, a far-seeing statesman who made the Macedonian army into the most ferocious fighting machine the world had yet seen.
and
"He put Greek culture at the top."

4- Another sarcasm that show me for one more time how weakness you are in History.

Kisses lady

And read first your sources and then transmit them :lol: :lol: :lol:

[GENEX]

I have asked you to show me your "historical sources" and bring me here:

1- A site with out any source just the conclusions (if also this is right because are written in of the Slav languages) and sign from someone Branislav RADIVOJŠA

what is wrong with the fact that this person holds this name? if you were as educated language wise as you are not - you would have seen the point i was making. the extension -ski or -ska in our language is simply as from or of


An article from someone Michael Browning... http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385479689/qid=1123786978/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8452840-0386506?v=glance&s=books


And read first your sources and then transmit them :lol: :lol: :lol:

:D :D :D

[airwings]

Dead Men Do Tell Tales : The Strange and Fascinating Cases of a Forensic Anthropologist (Paperback)
by William R. Maples, Michael Browning "I seldom have nightmares..."
are the same with him

Michael Browning
Cox News Service
Nov. 17, 2004 12:00 AM
BLA! BLA! BLA! BLA! BLA! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[airwings]

And lady you are worst and from the shipognia.
Michael Browning Filmography (http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hc&id=1800024599&cf=gen)
thanks for the nice night that you offered me.

Your historical sourses the Filmographer :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
BLA! BLA! BLA! BLA! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Davor]

Not only the school system but all the educational system.

Yes, only the school system, popular literature and popular science. Students of Literature or History knew very well that the common title of Alexander before WWII was "the Great", like everywhere else in the world.


By the way - why is Joan of Arc - Jovanka Orleanka?

Simply because the name was translated long ago, when there was a habbit of translating foreign names into their Serbian equivalent. Like when English King George was called King Djordje, or Austrian Emperror Franz Jozeph - Franja Josif.

Or Pope John Paul II - Jovan Pavle II. John is Jovan (Ioann), Joan is Jovanka. Orleanka is after the city of Orlean.


Historians all agree that Alexander had homosexual trysts

When I see this, it reminds me of all those new revisionists that claims everything and everywhere were homos. Even Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson.

[airwings]

Yes, only the school system, popular literature and popular science. Students of Literature or History knew very well that the common title of Alexander before WWII was "the Great", like everywhere else in the world.
Davor you know my opinion as consern the Post WW II literature system and how to "show" the Alexanders History according Titos policy.
And is not my opinion. Is opinion from a thousands Hellenes that graduated from the Yugoslav Universities ( Pristina, Beograd, Zagreb)

When I see this, it reminds me of all those new revisionists that claims everything and everywhere were homos. Even Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson.
Nice and Clever remark

[GENEX]

Dead Men Do Tell Tales : The Strange and Fascinating Cases of a Forensic Anthropologist (Paperback)
by William R. Maples, Michael Browning "I seldom have nightmares..."
are the same with him

Michael Browning
Cox News Service
Nov. 17, 2004 12:00 AM
BLA! BLA! BLA! BLA! BLA! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dead Men Do Tell Tales
Written by William R. Maples and Michael Browning

From a skeleton, a skull, a mere fragment of burnt thighbone, Dr. William Maples can deduce the age, gender, and ethnicity of a murder victim, the manner in which the person was dispatched, and, ultimately, the identity of the killer.

Dr. Maples is an expert in bones — a "forensic anthropologist." A doctor in this field studies how bones form and change throughout the lifetime of an individual, and how various diseases affect the skeleton. Simply by examining their bones, Dr. Maples can tell a person's age, build, gender, and even race. In addition, he knows what bones look like after being burned, or even after being partially digested by a shark. He has even identified people using only the wisps of bone which are left after cremation. Among the bones he has examined include; Joseph Merrick, "The Elephant Man", U.S. servicemen incinerated in airplane crashes in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, President Zachary Taylor, Tsar Nicholas II, and Ted Bundy.

http://law.richmond.edu/jurispub/1998/05_06/Gettier.htm

[airwings]

GENEX accept your "potato"
Michael Browning is a filmomgrapher that make comments for the Cox News as consern films
You show me this
http://www.azcentral.com/ent/movies/articles/1117alexander17.html
and show you another articles from him
Epic poem inspires 'Troy' (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4196/is_20040511/ai_n10964101)
Photos often tilt public opinion on military conflict (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4196/is_20040516/ai_n10969743)
Word choice: Webster's sums up opaque year (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4196/is_20031229/ai_n10913363)
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[GENEX]

By the way - why is Joan of Arc - Jovanka Orleanka?

Simply because the name was translated long ago, when there was a habbit of translating foreign names into their Serbian equivalent. Like when English King George was called King Djordje, or Austrian Emperror Franz Jozeph - Franja Josif.



you are totaly ignorant of linguistics of your own language. shame on you!

Beogradski (of Belgrade type), Slavenski (of Slavs), Makedonski (of Macedonia)


Historians all agree that Alexander had homosexual trysts

When I see this, it reminds me of all those new revisionists that claims everything and everywhere were homos. Even Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson.

you are such a homofobic

[GENEX]

GENEX accept your "potato"
Michael Browning is a filmomgrapher that make comments for the Cox News as consern films


that is your typical selective information acceptance -

he wrote a book using professional interviews of a forensic scientist.

[Davor]

you are totaly ignorant of linguistics of your own language. shame on you!

Beogradski (of Belgrade type), Slavenski (of Slavs), Makedonski (of Macedonia)

I think we didn't understand each other - you asked for an explanation why was "Joan of Arc" called Jovanka Orleanka. And what I wrote back was true.

"Aleksandar makedonski" really means "Alexander of Macedonia", but the point is that he was before called in our literature and history as "Alexander the Great" - "Aleksandar Veliki".

P. S. And slovenski and makedonski isn't capitalized.
P. P. S. Since when it is said "slavenski" in Bosnia?


you are such a homofobic

Well, a man really needs to be f*cking sick to be a homophile.

[GENEX]

you are totaly ignorant of linguistics of your own language. shame on you!

Beogradski (of Belgrade type), Slavenski (of Slavs), Makedonski (of Macedonia)

I think we didn't understand each other - you asked for an explanation why was "Joan of Arc" called Jovanka Orleanka. And what I wrote back was true.

"Aleksandar makedonski" really means "Alexander of Macedonia", but the point is that he was before called in our literature and history as "Alexander the Great" - "Aleksandar Veliki".

P. S. And slovenski and makedonski isn't capitalized.
P. P. S. Since when it is said "slavenski" in Bosnia?


you are such a homofobic

Well, a man really needs to be f*cking sick to be a homophile.

go on, i love it when you show off :)

[airwings]

GENEX accept your "potato"
Michael Browning is a filmomgrapher that make comments for the Cox News as consern films


that is your typical selective information acceptance -

he wrote a book using professional interviews of a forensic scientist.
Yes sure but your source is The Filmographer
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[GENEX]

GENEX accept your "potato"
Michael Browning is a filmomgrapher that make comments for the Cox News as consern films


that is your typical selective information acceptance -

he wrote a book using professional interviews of a forensic scientist.
Yes sure but your source is The Filmographer
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

yes, filmographer that works and gets his knowledge and material from scientists.

[OLTI]

There are few places where Alexander the Great's influence has not been felt. His vast empire spread from the Atlantic shores of Spain to the plains of India. His example has been admired and followed for generations to come, and his legacy has been deeply felt by the entire world. It is said that Julius Ceaser himself began to weep as he stood under the shadow of a statue of Alexander the Great, for Alexander had conquered half the world by 19, and Ceaser not even made a name for himself by that age.
And how was he Albanian in any way? Well, first of all Alexander was son of Philip II and Olympia. Olympia, was the princess of Epirus, a province in Northern Greece, considered to be modern day Albania, and an ancient territory of Albanian tribes. This relation of Alexander having Albanian blood is considered somewhat feasible and acceptable by the history books, but we want to stretch out the enigma of Alexander.
Initially there is the question of where and to what people Alexander belonged to. It is known that Alexander the Great, was really Alexander of Macedon, and the current flag of Macedonia is the ancient sun flag of Alexander's army. This seems reasonable, but what really were the "Macedon" people. As stated in the Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia, "the Slavs, occupied much of the area [Balkans] by the 6th century AD", so it cannot be possible for the now largely Slavic Macedonia to be a descendant from Alexander the Great. Slavic tribes did not come into the region of Northern Greece until well after Alexander's death, which leaves only one people left, the Albanians. Albanian tribes are the earliest known to occupy northern Greece, and that allows Alexander only one nationality. Alexander did not have Albanian blood, he was an Albanian. To Albanians this fact seems very clear, for we have named our currency lek, after Leka I Madh.
The history books have not named Alexander a Greek, so he can only be one other thing and that is Albanian. The Barbaric war style of the Illyrians was deeply rooted in Alexander's spirit, which is good reason for his expertise as a general and a conqueror.
More proof of Alexander's Albanian ancestry would have to be the close relations he had with the King of the Illyrians, practically a man of his own kin. There is an ancient legend that the Illyrian king gave Alexander a large, beastly, dog to commemorate his achievements. The beast was so ferocious, Alexander decided to make it hunt bears. The dog showed no interest in this endeavor and lay lazily without moving. This angered Alexander and he had the dog killed. When the king of the Illyrians heard of this he sent him another dog, this time with a message of "not wasting the dog's time with small things". This time Alexander had the dog fight a lion, which the dog quickly broke the back of, and then an Elephant, who the dog forced off a cliff. The extensive diplomacy between Alexander and the Illyrians only suggests that Alexander was an Albanian himself.
Also, there is the conquered territory of Alexander. When looking at a map of his advances, oddly enough Illirium and Northern Greece is not touched by his armies. Yet, the Illyrian and Northern Greek tribes did not have armies capable of facing the Great Alexander. But Alexander considered them as one, they were all Albanian. Alexander could not possibly conquer his own land. That is why this area remained untouched.
Accepting Alexander's Albanian ancestry opens a vast world of possibilities. There is of course the long Ptolemy dynasty of Egypt that followed after Alexander's death, started by one of Alexander's generals. Accepting Alexander as an Albanian, would mean accepting a big part of Egypt's history to be determined by an Albanian dynasty, that of Ptolemy.
Alexander's genius and accomplishments opened a great chapter in the history of Albania. A chapter that has never been forgotten

More here: http://www.forumi.zeriyt.com/index.php/topic,15859.0.html

[shqiponja]

Airwings you really can't complain about sources. I'll just remind you of when you referred to Liakopoulos! :shock:

[airwings]

Airwings you really can't complain about sources. I'll just remind you of when you referred to Liakopoulos! :shock:
shqiponja well come back
Fresh your memory.
http://balkanforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=48&start=0

Hahahahaha (laughing) you bring to me something written in a book of Liakopoulos???
Was you the person that mentioned first the name liakopoulos in the Chameria topic. And of course i never forget your geocities sources.

edit: Presents
25-8-2005, 2:11 the One
25-8-2005, 2:34 you

[airwings]

And how was he Albanian in any way? Well, first of all Alexander was son of Philip II and Olympia. Olympia, was the princess of Epirus, a province in Northern Greece, considered to be modern day Albania, and an ancient territory of Albanian tribes. This relation of Alexander having Albanian blood is considered somewhat feasible and acceptable by the history books, but we want to stretch out the enigma of Alexander.
Nice article, your english are better than mine.
Can you tell me please the historical books?

[Davor]

Illyrian blood... maybe. Albanian - nope.

If we take that Macedones weren't Greek people, than they were Thracians, not Illyrians.

BTW, beside being called Macedonian and Greek, Alexander was only called Serbian, and that 2,000 years after him. Only now when more than 2,500 years have passed, we hear such brave theories based on nothing...

[airwings]

The source from the OLTI article was the
http://albhistory.netfirms.com/famousalbanians-alexander.html
Still waiting the Historical books :?

[Davor]

Famous Albanians - Alexander? What about Adam and Eve?

[airwings]

Famous Albanians - Alexander? What about Adam and Eve?
I have heared worst thinks
What about B;ack Alexander, Black Athina or Black Socrates. As you see all these came from the Afrocentrism theory that say all came from the Africa. :lol: :lol:

[Davor]

Too bad that even if all people did come out of Africa, they were white, not black.

[Balozi]

i dont agree with alexander being albanian or something but alexander the serb sounds even more garbage ;)

[GENEX]

i dont agree with alexander being albanian or something but alexander the serb sounds even more garbage ;)

he was a marsian :)

[Davor]

i dont agree with alexander being albanian or something but alexander the serb sounds even more garbage ;)

I too think that he wasn't Serb (although I am not totally dismissing it), but I didn't claim that he was, I only said that he was called that during Ottoman times, and not by Serbs. I know of two occasions when this happened.

It is interesting that early Serbian Historians (17th and 18th century) counted him into Serbs. (I hope I'm not mistaking with that - if DJ-TC appears, please correct me).

[airwings]

And how was he Albanian in any way? Well, first of all Alexander was son of Philip II and Olympia. Olympia, was the princess of Epirus, a province in Northern Greece, considered to be modern day Albania, and an ancient territory of Albanian tribes.
You mention Albanian tribes. Which tribe?


Albanian tribes are the earliest known to occupy northern Greece, and that allows Alexander only one nationality. Alexander did not have Albanian blood, he was an Albanian.
Which tribe occupy northern Greece?

. To Albanians this fact seems very clear, for we have named our currency lek, after Leka I Madh.
Why your currency system did not show the Great Alexander?
1 Lek: Pelican
5 Leke: The eagle from the Flag of Albania
10 Leke: Castle of Berat city
20 Leke: Liburnian ship
50 Leke: Portrait of the Illyrian King Gentius
100 Leke: Portrait of the Illyrian Queen Teuta

.
The history books have not named Alexander a Greek, so he can only be one other thing and that is Albanian.
The Historical books named the Alexander as a Hellene not Greek.
Can you give a source that mention was or is a Albanian?

.
The Barbaric war style of the Illyrians was deeply rooted in Alexander's spirit, which is good reason for his expertise as a general and a conqueror.
Can you give us a link or source that explain the Illyrian military way?

.
Yet, the Illyrian and Northern Greek tribes did not have armies capable of facing the Great Alexander. But Alexander considered them as one, they were all Albanian.
The Northern Greek tribes are Albanians? And what are the names of them?

.
Alexander's genius and accomplishments opened a great chapter in the history of Albania. A chapter that has never been forgotten
Why your country never officily put any claims that the Great Alexander was a Albanian? Why this "chapter" forgotten from your country?

[Balozi]

alexander's mother was from the molossian tribe i think. near them also lived the chaones.

but i dont think he was illyrian, he probably just had some close relations with the illyrians, maybe cause his mom was illyrian too. from what i know, the macedonians had some similarities with the illyrians and thracians. alexander was macedonian not illyrian

[airwings]

alexander was macedonian not illyrian
What kind of Macedonian. Is possible to be more specific please?

[kosovari]

Macedonian macedonian. :lol:

[airwings]

Macedonian macedonian. :lol:
edit: Slavmacedonian, Hellenic or Bulgarian? :lol: :lol:

[airwings]

Great Alexander when had spoken in Slav Macedonian Lanquage:

Οι δε έπει ταύτα ήκουσαν, αυτίκα είποντο ες τάς φύλακας. Άπικομένοισι δε έλεγε Αλέξανδρος τάδε' "Άνδρες Αθηναίοι, παραθήκην υμίν τα έπεα τάδε τίθεμαι, απόρρητα ποιεύμενος προς μηδένα λέγειν υμέας άλλον ή Παυσανίην, μη με και διαφθείρητε• ου γαρ αν έλεγον, ει μη μεγάλως έκηδόμην συναπάσης της Ελλάδος• αυτός τε γαρ Έλλην γένος ειμί τώρχαίον, και άντ' ελευθέρης δεδουλωμένην ουκ αν έθέλοιμι όραν την Ελλάδα. Λέγω δε ων ότι Μαρδονίω τε και τη στρατιή τα σφάγια ου δύναται καταθύμια γενέσθαι" πάλαι γαρ αν έμάχεσθε• νυν δε οι δέδοκται τα μεν σφάγια εάν χαίρειν, άμα ήμέρη δε διαφωσκούση συμβολήν ποιέεσθαι' κα-ταρρώδηκε γαρ μη πλέονες συλλεχθήτε, ως εγώ εικάζω. Προς ταύτα ετοιμάζεστε. ην δε άρα υπερβάληται την συμβολήν Μαρδόνιος και μη ποιήται, λιπαρέετε μένοντες• όλιγέων γαρ σφι ήμερέων λείπεται αιτία. Ην δε υμίν ο πόλεμος όδε κατά νόον τελευτήση, μνησθήναί τίνα χρή και έμέο έλευθερώσιος περί, ός Ελλήνων είνεκα έργον ούτω παράβολον έργασμαι υπό προθυμίης, έθέλων υμίν δηλώσαι την διάνοιαν την Μαρδονίου, ίνα μη έπιπέσωσι υμίν εξαίφνης οι βάρβαροι μη προσδεκομέ-νοισί κω. Ειμί δε Αλέξανδρος ό Μακεδών."
and in Enqlish

45-They at once, hearing this, made haste to the outpost, where they found Alexander, who addressed them as follows:"Men of Athens, that which I am about to say I trust to your honour; and I charge you to keep it secret from all excepting Pausanias, if you would not bring me to destruction. Had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Hellas, I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself a Hellene by descent, and I would not willingly see Hellas exchange freedom for slavery. Know then that Mardonius and his army cannot obtain favourable omens; had it not been for this, they would have fought with you long ago. Now, however, they have determined to let the victims pass unheeded, and, as soon as day dawns, to engage in battle. Mardonius, I imagine, is afraid that, if he delays, you will increase in number. Make ready then to receive him. Should he however still defer the combat, do you abide where you are; for his provisions will not hold out many more days. If ye prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the Hellenic cause, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians. I am Alexander of Macedon."


but I am myself a Hellene by descent, and I would not willingly see Hellas exchange freedom for slavery.
I am Alexander of Macedon.


αυτός τε γαρ Έλλην γένος ειμί τώρχαίον, και άντ' ελευθέρης δεδουλωμένην ουκ αν έθέλοιμι όραν την Ελλάδα
Ειμί δε Αλέξανδρος ό Μακεδών.

It's very hard for me to read in the SlavBoulgarian Dialect of the Great Alexander

source:
Herodotus (4-45)
Maybe and him was a Slav

[romanos]

ahah airwings :D :P (about your comment on the quote)

anyway, since common people don't (and won't) affect the issue of the name, i suggest relaxation.
also, working on another subject i found this very nice source, which is worth your while (contains photos, very nice battle-diagrams and some more)

History of Alexander (http://www.army.gr/n/e/archive/events/alexander/alexander.html)

and to proove it's worth i quote the BIBLIOGRAPHY:



Arrianos: Ascention of Alexander, Papyrus, Athens, 1938
Diodorus of Sicily: Histiorische bibliothek, Leipzig, 1890
Plutarch: Alexander, Papyrus, Athens, 1940
Tzahos E.E.: The Macedonian Army, Military Review 6/95, HAGS/7th SO/1995
Tzahos E.E.: King Philip and the End of the Athenian Naval Supremacy, Military Review 1/95, HAGS, 7th SO/1995
Bosworth A:B: Conquest and Empire, the Reign of Alexander the Great, Cambridge 1988
Bury J.B.: History of Greece, London, 1952
Cummings L.V.: Alexander the Great, Boston 1940
Droysen J.G.: Geschichte Alexanders der Grossen, Duesseldorf 1966
Fondazione Memmo: Alessandro Magno, Leonardo Arte, Roma 1995
Green P. : Alexander of Macedon, A historical Biography, Berkeley- Los Angeles,1991
Hammond N.G.L.: Alexander the Great, Bristol 1989
Holt Fr.L.: Alexander the Great and Bactria, Leiden 1988
Milns R.D.: Alexander the Great, London 1968
Robinson C.A.: History of Alexander the Great, vol .I,II .Providence , !953 - 1963
Schachermeyr F.: Alexander der Grosse, Wien 1973
Tarn W.W.: Alexander the Great, Cambridge 1948ofcourse, Arrianos, Plutarch and Diodoros are ancient historians ;)

[kosovari]

Books, my friends, books, that is what I call the "source", and not always referring to some website info (no offense intended on internet as a source of information, on the contrary!).

Well done R !
For interested ones, the research can commence !

[Odysseus]

A visit in Vergina and Filips' Tomb will convince most about Alexander's origin...

[Son Of Macedon]

From what i've read in this thread, I see that you terribly miss a Macedonian in this Forum, otherwise a lot of lies can be said and there will be no one to correct them, anyway someone asked who are the Macedonian heroes in the beggining of this discussion, so I will answer to him. Beside the national heroes that will stir up controversy like (Alexander The Great, Phillip II) we have Tsar Samoil, Goce Delcev, Nikola Karev, Pavel Satev...

[WisdomSeeker]

From what i've read in this thread, I see that you terribly miss a Macedonian in this Forum, otherwise a lot of lies can be said and there will be no one to correct them, anyway someone asked who are the Macedonian heroes in the beggining of this discussion, so I will answer to him. Beside the national heroes that will stir up controversy like (Alexander The Great, Phillip II) we have Tsar Samoil, Goce Delcev, Nikola Karev, Pavel Satev...


Or, having a slav macedonian around will stimulate us greeks even further to debunk one by one all your arguments about the ancient macedonians. Dont mix Alexandros and Phillipos with Goce Delcev....Tsar Samuil ''macedonian''? :DIndeed,there are so many lies posted in this forum,that we have always jumped to correct them. Look at the FYROM topics and you will understand what im talking about.

Look man, it is every damn time the same. Every time one connational of yours joined this forum and started reproducing all the same stuff again,we have presented so many arguments about the silly ideas you have ,so each one of them have left with their tail between his legs.

Now,i suggest you should think twice before presenting us your ''arguments'' ,or i will see it personally to make you follow your connationals' course.

[Son Of Macedon]

Now this is the first time i see this ignorant post from you WisdomSeeker,it seems you haven't seeked enough wisdom in the past years of your life, but don't worry you might learn something in the days to come...

[No_name1]

Grrrr everytime greeks and macedonians get together they argue over a name and ancient people. The bottom line who cares the guy is dead borders have changed so much who can really tell what nationality he is? Also can either the greeks or macedonains just find a new name for Macedonia (FYROM) or just the greek region?

[Son Of Macedon]

The thing is that they cannot tell us what we should be called, it's our right to name our country whatever we like, to put it simplier can I as a person tell you as another person what you should be called? And if you choose a name that i don't like should i protest, veto you or just mind my business? Of course mind my business!
They should let go, our name is Macedonia and that's what it'll always be!

[WisdomSeeker]

The thing is that they cannot tell us what we should be called, it's our right to name our country whatever we like, to put it simplier can I as a person tell you as another person what you should be called? And if you choose a name that i don't like should i protest, veto you or just mind my business? Of course mind my business!
They should let go, our name is Macedonia and that's what it'll always be!


You can choose any name you want mate,provided it does not belong to a different culture,history and nation from your own. So Macedonia is out of the question. Take a look elsewhere in this forum,there is another thread for this issue;)

[Anna_Black]

First of all, I am a Macedonian and I am proud of it.

So, to the topic: Alexander.
the other name for him is Alexander of Macedon.
His father, the Macedonian king - Philip ll, mother Olympia - she came from Greece.

So, read this carefully you all who claim that Alexander is not Macedonian.

As his father was always away he was raised by his greek mother and was thaught by the Greek way. Furthermore, his teacher was Aristotel himslef, also a greek. So, it is no wonder that he cherished the greek culture, but he remained Macedonian till the end.

He spread the helenic culture becasue he believed that the greeks are more civilised than the Macedonians, and he wanted all people to be civilised.

And how could he have thought that the Macedonians were not barbarians when he watched his father beeing so rude to his mother.
For heavn's sake, Olympia even told Alexander that he was consieved by the tail of a snake!


So, to wrap it all up: Alexander of Macedon was Macedonian, but cherished the Greek culture.

[Anna_Black]

You can choose any name you want mate,provided it does not belong to a different culture,history and nation from your own. So Macedonia is out of the question. Take a look elsewhere in this forum,there is another thread for this issue;)


Look, mate, why can we not use Macedonia? Becasue you said so? By you I mean your whole nation.

Here is something for you: you called yourself greeks, lived on greek terithory, and we all know that you lived on more that that (Egyian Macedonia) and no one denyied you the right to call yourselves Greeks and to call that way your land.

So, we have lived in Macedonia more that mileniums and you still deny us the right to call ourselves Macedonians and our country Macedonia? With what right?

In fact we have lived on our lands since forever and you did not.

So, you figure out the conclussion.

[WisdomSeeker]

welcome aboard first of all.

The problem here is not that Greeks want to have the name in exclusivity,but that the slav macedonians. So dont try to distort things.

Furthermore,im sure you know very well that the term macedonia is a geographical one,if you deny this fact,then im sorry,but i must regard you as those you are brainwashed (some of your connationals).Under this logic,how can you pretend on the exclusivity of the name,especially when you occupy only a 20-25% of the geographic region?

Knowing that your country is mostly a slavic one would be a first step of understanding the greek concerns.

I have stated many times that i dont have any problem whatsoever of calling you ''macedonians'' as long as there is some derivative which clearly distinguish your slavic culture from the ancient macedonian one,and when you decide to drop the territorial claims towards Greece

[WisdomSeeker]

Regarding Alexander the Great:


So, to wrap it all up: Alexander of Macedon was Macedonian, but cherished the Greek culture.


This is a first step towards the truth. At least you admit that Alexander the Great spread hellenic culture to Asia,not ''macedonian'' one. You seem to be more rational than your other connationals who are blindfolded by pure nationalism.


If you desire to debate on a historical level about the nature and origins of the ancient macedonians, please do so,so we can debate some more. It will be interesting..

[Anna_Black]

Regarding Alexander the Great:




This is a first step towards the truth. At least you admit that Alexander the Great spread hellenic culture to Asia,not ''macedonian'' one. You seem to be more rational than your other connationals who are blindfolded by pure nationalism.


If you desire to debate on a historical level about the nature and origins of the ancient macedonians, please do so,so we can debate some more. It will be interesting..


This is the truth! I have read a lot about him, believe me and that is the real truth, not wrapped around lies.
It is not a matter whether I or you will make a mutal agreement, it is about the truth.

[Balozi]

you are going off topic. the thread is about alexander

[Torontezos]

I'm splitting the thread as I think it will be an interesting debate if we keep it civil of course...

[..Jovan..]

my father told me some stuff about Alexander The Great.
He told me when he was about to die he told his people (who ever they were:P) that he would like one of his hands to stick out of coffin. When they asked why he said, ''so the world can see i have took nothing with me to the grave''. And i respect that. I respect that because someone with wise quotes surely has wisdom in them.

[albgene]

Two quick points regarding Alexander the great and Macedonia:

1- Olympia, mother of Alexander, was from Epirus,molissis to be exact. Greeks can argue all they want that Epirus like Macedonia is a geographical term, but that doesn't mean their claims hold any water.The origins of the three tribes that make up Epirus (chaonia, Molossis & Thesprotia) are still a matter of great debate, some say illyrians, some pelazgians and some say they were greeks.

2- Macedonians were distinguishable from greeks. Said that, the present so-called Macedonians aka fyromians are simply a joke. They are pure slavs, part of the barbaric slav invasions in the 6-th, 7-th century.

[WisdomSeeker]

1- Olympia, mother of Alexander, was from Epirus,molissis to be exact. Greeks can argue all they want that Epirus like Macedonia is a geographical term, but that doesn't mean their claims hold any water.The origins of the three tribes that make up Epirus (chaonia, Molossis & Thesprotia) are still a matter of great debate, some say illyrians, some pelazgians and some say they were greeks.

Molossoi were considered a greek tribe albgene. It is not the greeks who said that,it is the ancient historians. Epirus was a region populated BOTH by greek and illyrian tribes.
But EVEN IF we take into consideration that Alexander the Great was of illyrian blood from his mother,would that make him Albanian? In other words,DO ALBANIANS come from THE WHOLE NUMBER OF ILLYRIAN TRIBES?

Dont mix pelasgians here,they were much more older as a number of tribes,of an older historical era.

And why cant our arguments hold water? Elaborate more. Or do you deny that Epirus is a pure geographical term ,like Macedonia,Thessaly,Thrace, Peloponnesus, Attica?


2- Macedonians were distinguishable from greeks

In what way? in terms of ethnicity? I like your confidence on this,i really do.Plus,i dont see the cohesion here with your last sentence,either if you are right or not. Elaborate again,if you want to debate some more.:?

[Balozi]

please dont go off topic. ws you are asking off topic stuff

[..Jovan..]

In other words,DO ALBANIANS come from THE WHOLE NUMBER OF ILLYRIAN TRIBES?

Actually this is relevant because information like this can help figure out what nationality Alexander The Great was.

[WisdomSeeker]

please dont go off topic. ws you are asking off topic stuff

Im asking about Alexander's mother origin,where does it make off topic?

pfft...dont be so formal lol

[albgene]

Molossoi were considered a greek tribe albgene. It is not the greeks who said that,it is the ancient historians.

Which historians WS?...let me guess Greek historians.
Plus let's not forget that your claims on northern epirus part of your "megali idea" rely on Epirus being greek, thus it's not far-fetched to believe that manipulation and "inaccuracies" might have occurred on the wonderful text books you print for the younger generation of Greeks.


Epirus was a region populated BOTH by greek and illyrian tribes.
True.


But EVEN IF we take into consideration that Alexander the Great was of illyrian blood from his mother,would that make him Albanian?

No, it's just a matter of clarity. His legacy, clearly does not belong to Albanians, but as every other man, he was born to a father and a mother, the latter arguably illyrian.


In other words,DO ALBANIANS come from THE WHOLE NUMBER OF ILLYRIAN TRIBES?

I don't quiet understand what you mean by this. Albanians as far as I'm concerned are descendents of illyrian tribes. There were many illyrians tribes as you might know. Later on, with the invasion of slavs tribe they pushed south wards and later a national consciousness was born which brought them together.


Dont mix pelasgians here,they were much more older as a number of tribes,of an older historical era.

It's not me, it's historians who throw these arguments on the table. Pelasgians didn't just disappear.


And why cant our arguments hold water? Elaborate more. Or do you deny that Epirus is a pure geographical term ,like Macedonia,Thessaly,Thrace, Peloponnesus, Attica?

I stand by what i said. At the time, we didn't have homogeneous countries. We had city states and tribes. today, if you say "malesiae madhe" or Epirus for that matter, the term is, rightfully so a geographical term.



In what way? in terms of ethnicity? I like your confidence on this,i really do.Plus,i dont see the cohesion here with your last sentence,either if you are right or not. Elaborate again,if you want to debate some more.:?

I'm consistent in what I'm saying. Macedonians were probably Thracian, as you might know they were never invited in Olympic games (alexander was the first one), they were referred as barbarians, their language was distinguishable from Greek or at least arguable so.
Said that, I do believe later on (and of course before the slav invasion) a Greek consciousness arose as a result of heavy mixing.

Claims of Fyromians on Alexander the great or Macedonia as a whole are pure non-sense. They are slavic, by language, culture...everything but that virginia star.:P

I hope you can see the "cohesion" now.

[WisdomSeeker]

Which historians WS?...let me guess Greek historians.

Ancient historians AND geographers albgene. Strabo,Diodorus Siculus,clearly differentiate Molossoi from the rest of Illyrian tribes. check the other threads here about them.


Plus let's not forget that your claims on northern epirus part of your "megali idea" rely on Epirus being greek, thus it's not far-fetched to believe that manipulation and "inaccuracies" might have occurred on the wonderful text books you print for the younger generation of Greeks.

Again with the ''megali idea'' thing? Get over it man.
As for the last,well,unfortunately for you there are the texts in every historical site online in the prototype (ancient greek). Check Perseus.Taft .thesaurus for that matter,if you dont regard my sources reliable. Im sure you will find many interesting things there for this issue.

Trying to connect isues who distant themselves at least 25 centuries is out of the context. Or should we imply pe:Drhaps that the ancient greek historians and geographers had the ''megali idea'' in their minds?

oh btw,it seems that who is been taught ''inaccuracies'' in the school is you. and here is why:


he was born to a father and a mother, the latter arguably illyrian.

Molossoi were not an Illyrian tribe,as they were speaking greek and claimed discendency from Thessaly,the kingdom of Achilles.


idon't quiet understand what you mean by this. Albanians as far as I'm concerned are descendents of illyrian tribes. There were many illyrians tribes as you might know. Later on, with the invasion of slavs tribe they pushed south wards and later a national consciousness was born which brought them together.

Bingo! same thing stands for the ancient greek tribes,only that they had developed the greek national consioussness already in the antiquity from the Persian wars and after..

I meant that ive met a lot of albanians who claim descendancy over the ''albanoi'' tribe. Now you say you come from the entire population of illyrians? Anyway,my point was proven.


It's not me, it's historians who throw these arguments on the table. Pelasgians didn't just disappear

What historians?

it's not far-fetched to believe that manipulation and "inaccuracies" might have occurred on the wonderful text books you print for the younger generation of Albanians.

do you see how lovely i can change the word ''greeks'' with that of ''albanians''?

I stand by what i ve said. Pelasgians were not in the historic scene by the time we are speaking of,that of Alexander the Great. They have not dissapeared,but the incoming indoeuropean tribes who came into our peninsula assimilated them. That goes for greeks,illyrians,thracians.(the southern ones) They were of an older stock. So i repeat,dont mix them.


Quote:
Epirus was a region populated BOTH by greek and illyrian tribes.
True.



hm...what greek tribes populated the Epirus area?except of Dorians of course.



I'm consistent in what I'm saying. Macedonians were probably Thracian, as you might know they were never invited in Olympic games (alexander was the first one), they were referred as barbarians, their language was distinguishable from Greek or at least arguable so.

''Macedonians were probably Thracian..''' Nice hypothesis. Too bad it is just that: An hypothesis,made from a smal minority of revisionist historians who have dubious aims..
If you dont know well the issue albgene,dont start make assumptions. Macedonians were accepted in the olympic games,and you obviously have mixed Alexander the Great ( Alexander III) with his grandfather Alexander I who has been accepted to partecipate in the games.

For your information,here are the known macedonians accepted in the games:

King Alexander I, in the 80th Olympics, in 460 BCE. He run the “Stadion” and was placed very close second. · King Arhelaos Perdikas, competed in the 93rd Olympics, in 408 BCE and won at Delphi the race of the four-horse chariot.
· King Philip II was an Olympic champion three times. In the 106th Olympics, in 356 BCE, he won the race, riding his horse. In the 107th Olympics, in 352 BCE, he won the four-horse chariot race. In the 108th Olympics, in 348 BCE, he was the winner of the two colt chariot.
· Cliton run the Stadion in the 113rd Olympics, in 328 BCE.
· Damasias from Amphipolis won in the Stadion in the 115th Olympics, in 320 BCE.
· Lampos from Philippi, was proclaimed a winner in the four-horse chariot race in the 119th Olympics, in 304 BCE.
· Antigonos won in the Stadion race, in the 122nd Olympics, in 292 BCE and in the 123rd Olympics in 288 BCE.
· Seleucos won in the field-sports competition in the 128th Olympics in 268 BCE.
· During the 128th Olympics, in 268 BCE and in the 129th Olympics, in 264 BCE, a woman from Macedonia won the competition.


Pausanias mentions that: “…it is said that the race of the two-colt chariot was won by a woman, named Velestihi from the seashores of Macedonia”.



I have argued about this argument of barbarians. Thucidides stated this because of their backward political system. Thucidides also states to certain points of his ''Peloponnesian wars'' that Athenians called the Spartans as ''barbarians'',should we accept that Spartans were not of greek stock as well?



Regarding language,it is arguable whether it was a greek dialect or not,but it is off topic in this thread.




Claims of Fyromians on Alexander the great or Macedonia as a whole are pure non-sense. They are slavic, by language, culture...everything but that virginia star



''Vergina Star''. im curious,why should have any claim only in the macedonian version of ''Rodax/Rodakas''?
(google for it,you will be surprised by what you will find).;)

[adzigogov2001]

Achaian Always made problems for the north barbaric people called Macedonians.

The Macedonians kings you writed about ALL PATRICIPATED in the MACEDONIAN GAMES, not the OLIMPIC games. They never enter or participated among Athenans.

Only ALEX 3 participated, Because od Olipia (epir) Achaian league at that time.
So What did ALEKSANDAR 3 won in the olimpics?

[airwings]

Achaian Always made problems for the north barbaric people called Macedonians.

The Macedonians kings you writed about ALL PATRICIPATED in the MACEDONIAN GAMES, not the OLIMPIC games. They never enter or participated among Athenans.

Only ALEX 3 participated, Because od Olipia (epir) Achaian league at that time.
So What did ALEKSANDAR 3 won in the olimpics?
Skopjan you have alot to learn as about the ancient Macedonian history

Macedonians, who participated in the Olympics at Olympia, were as follows:
·King Alexander I, in the 80th Olympics, in 460 BCE. He run the “Stadion” and was placed very close second.
·King Arhelaos Perdikas, competed in the 93rd Olympics, in 408 BCE and won at Delphi the race of the four-horse chariot.
·King Philip II was an Olympic champion three times. In the 106th Olympics, in 356 BCE, he won the race, riding his horse. In the 107th Olympics, in 352 BCE, he won the four-horse chariot race. In the 108th Olympics, in 348 BCE, he was the winner of the two colt chariot.
·Cliton run the Stadion in the 113rd Olympics, in 328 BCE.
·Damasias from Amphipolis won in the Stadion in the 115th Olympics, in 320 BCE.
·Lampos from Philippi, was proclaimed a winner in the four-horse chariot race in the 119th Olympics, in 304 BCE.
·Antigonos won in the Stadion race, in the 122nd Olympics, in 292 BCE and in the 123rd Olympics in 288 BCE.
·Seleucos won in the field-sports competition in the 128th Olympics in 268 BCE.
·During the 128th Olympics, in 268 BCE and in the 129th Olympics, in 264 BCE, a woman from won the competition. Pausanias mentions that: “…it is said that the race of the two-colt chariot was won by a woman, named Velestihi from the seashores of Macedonia.

more in
Participation of ancient Macedonians in Pan-Hellenic games at the Macedonia On The Web (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/ancient-macedonian-history/682-participation-ancient-macedonians-pan-hellenic-games.html)

[Axios]

Greek lie

"Alexander's army was a Greek army"

Actually it is much better to call Darius' army - Greek army, since 50,000 Greeks were fighting on Darius' side against Alexander and his Macedonians, while only 7,000 Greeks served as ‘hostages’ the ambitions of the Macedonian king (Green). These hostages, Alexander got rid of only when he learned that the Macedonian occupation troops have a firm control of the whole of Greece, when Antipater finally subdued the Spartans next to the rest of the Greeks. Here are the overwhelming proofs that the Alexander’s army was not a Greek army, and that Alexander did not care about the Greeks, but his Macedonians:

"This was the Panhellenic crusade preached by Isocrates, and as such the king’s propaganda section continued - for the time being - to present it. No one, so far as we know, was tactless enough to ask the obvious question: if this was a Panhellenic crusade, where were the Greek troops? Peter Green Alexander of Macedon [p. 157]

Eugene Borza "Makedonika" on the number of Greeks serving the Macedonian king together with the Macedonians:

"Of the nearly 850 persons listed by Berve, 275 are either certainly or probably ethnic Greeks. Of this number, 126 persons are not associated with Alexander's train, and thus outside present concerns. Of the 149 which remain, 69-- nearly half-- are court figures not associated with administration. They include sophists, physicians, actors, athletes, musicians, jugglers, and other entertainers, and a variety of hangers-on. 89 names remain. Of these three are of uncertain ethnic origin. 24 Greeks serve the king in variety of administrative tasks: some are envoys, some are clerks, some financial officers, some act as king's agents in local places. They pop in and out of the historical record as Alexander sees the need to employ them. The remaining 53 Greeks serve specific military functions. Out of these 53 persons, 22 names are attached to a single unit (the allies from Orchomenos), who, by the way, are dismissed along with the other Greek allies in 330 B.C. (Only a few short years into the expedition). Fourteen other Greeks hold naval appointments, either as ship commanders in the Hydaspes fleet, or in conjunction with Nearchus' ocean voyage. Four Greeks are in charge of mercenary units, and 9 others have unspecified, low- level military assignments. Seven have duties that did not take them beyond Egypt. In summary, of the 149 known Greeks with official connections to the king, only 35 to 40 held positions of rank- some as officers, some as administrators, but only a handful in top positions."

[airwings]

There is a opening thread as about the Skopjan lies that you re-produce

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/anti-greek-alexander-propaganda/

Enjoy :)

[Axios]

There is a opening thread as about the Skopjan lies that you re-produce

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/anti-greek-alexander-propaganda/

Enjoy :) Axios

Read the truth

QUINTUS CURTIUS RUFUS

Roman Historian

The History of Alexander

"In capital cases it was a long-established Macedonian practice for the king to conduct the trial while the army (or the commons in peace-time) acted as jury, and the position of the king counted for nothing unless his influence had been substantial prior to the trial." [p.135] [Another Macedonian custom]

Alexander speaks: "The Macedonians are going to judge your case," he said. "Please state whether you will use your native language before them."

Philotas: "Besides the Macedonians, there are many present who, I think, will find what I am going to say easier to understand if I use the language you yourself have been using, your purpose, I believe, being only to enable more people to understand you."

Then the king said: "Do you see how offensive Philotas find even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember he as contemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language." [p.138]

[This is again Alexander himself clearly separates the Macedonian as an independent language and the Macedonian way of life, from the Greek language and the Greek way of life which Philotas had referred to be the diplomatic language in the Macedonian court]

This is not writing from Macedonians historian, and this is historical proof about the difference between Macedonian and Greeks language. Who is the strong evidence that is Alexander have been Macedonian.

[Torontezos]

More about the trial of Philotas, and an academic analysis of Rufus' story:

http://www.history.ccsu.edu/elias/AlexandrosPatrius.htm

(as you can see, this is a unversity reference Department of History, Central Conn. State University)

I hope your latin is good, as this is a line-by-line translation and analysis, read it before you start spewing out alleged "facts"

[adzigogov2001]

Read
www.historyofmacedonia.org

not your propaganistic bull

[Torontezos]

Read
www.historyofmacedonia.org

not your propaganistic bull

Let me get this straight, an article written by a History Professor, accepted by historians, in a University is propaganda.

But some revisionist history site funded by the Slav-Macedonians is not?


:hysterica :clap:

[Axios]

I have said it before and I will say it again, the Greek dispute with the Republic of Macedonia over the name "Macedonia" is nothing more than a ploy, a con, a ruse, to sidestep the real issues; the status of the Macedonian minority in Greece.

[airwings]

I have said it before and I will say it again, the Greek dispute with the Republic of Macedonia over the name "Macedonia" is nothing more than a ploy, a con, a ruse, to sidestep the real issues; the status of the Macedonian minority in Greece.
Which "Macedonian" minority? this that express from the 250 members of the Rainbow or the 2000 votes that took the same party in the last elections in the Macedonia?
So what kind of minority? and don't start the known propagndistic story of the assimilation because we will start to make circles:type:

[Boogie]

History of Macedonia
George Rawlinson M.A, Canon of Canterbury and Camden Professor of Ancient history at the University of Oxford
Ancient History of Chaldaea, Assyria, Media, Babylonia, Lydia, Phoenicia, Syria, Judaea, Egypt, Carthage, Persia, Greece, Macedonia, Parthia, and Rome., The Colonial Press, New York, 1899.
Read and cry Atinophone

[Boogie]

http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/Rawlinson.html
Maybe this is better

[Axios]

Which "Macedonian" minority? this that express from the 250 members of the Rainbow or the 2000 votes that took the same party in the last elections in the Macedonia?
So what kind of minority? and don't start the known propagndistic story of the assimilation because we will start to make circles:type: Axios

It is a well documented fact that Greece, in 1912, 1913 during the two Balkan wars, entered and forcibly occupied Macedonian territory illegally without the consent of the Macedonian people. It then, along with its partners Bulgaria and Serbia, went on a rampage bombing Macedonian villages and indiscriminately killing and murdering entire populations.

It is a well documented fact that as soon as Greece consolidated its hold on Greek Occupied Macedonia, it murdered or forcible exiled all Macedonians who refused to accept its conditions.

It is a well documented fact that after ethnically cleansing the
Macedonian population, Greece brought Greek settlers from Asia Minor, Epirus and other regions and settled them on Macedonian territory, mostly on the lands of the exiled Macedonians, without their consent.


It is a well documented fact that during the early 1920's Greece began a campaign of denationalization by banning the Macedonian language and making it illegal to speak Macedonian in Macedonia. It then proceeded to forcibly change all peoples' names and toponyms.
5.. It is also a well documented fact that during the Greek Civil War, Greece exiled a large part of the Macedonian population, including the refugee children, illegally expropriated properties and issued them to new settlers.

The territory which Greece today calls "Greek Macedonia" is in fact "Greek Occupied Macedonia" and has been occupied since 1912. The so-called "Greek Macedonians" are not really Macedonians at all, in fact they are the "Greek Settlers" who Greece has been depositing on Macedonian lands since the Balkan wars (1912, 1913).

[Boogie]

Axios

It is a well documented fact that Greece, in 1912, 1913 during the two Balkan wars, entered and forcibly occupied Macedonian territory illegally without the consent of the Macedonian people. It then, along with its partners Bulgaria and Serbia, went on a rampage bombing Macedonian villages and indiscriminately killing and murdering entire populations.

It is a well documented fact that as soon as Greece consolidated its hold on Greek Occupied Macedonia, it murdered or forcible exiled all Macedonians who refused to accept its conditions.

It is a well documented fact that after ethnically cleansing the
Macedonian population, Greece brought Greek settlers from Asia Minor, Epirus and other regions and settled them on Macedonian territory, mostly on the lands of the exiled Macedonians, without their consent.


It is a well documented fact that during the early 1920's Greece began a campaign of denationalization by banning the Macedonian language and making it illegal to speak Macedonian in Macedonia. It then proceeded to forcibly change all peoples' names and toponyms.
5.. It is also a well documented fact that during the Greek Civil War, Greece exiled a large part of the Macedonian population, including the refugee children, illegally expropriated properties and issued them to new settlers.

The territory which Greece today calls "Greek Macedonia" is in fact "Greek Occupied Macedonia" and has been occupied since 1912. The so-called "Greek Macedonians" are not really Macedonians at all, in fact they are the "Greek Settlers" who Greece has been depositing on Macedonian lands since the Balkan wars (1912, 1913).

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Mytilinios]

Axios

It is a well documented fact that Greece, in 1912, 1913 during the two Balkan wars, entered and forcibly occupied Macedonian territory illegally without the consent of the Macedonian people. It then, along with its partners Bulgaria and Serbia, went on a rampage bombing Macedonian villages and indiscriminately killing and murdering entire populations.

It is a well documented fact that as soon as Greece consolidated its hold on Greek Occupied Macedonia, it murdered or forcible exiled all Macedonians who refused to accept its conditions.

It is a well documented fact that after ethnically cleansing the
Macedonian population, Greece brought Greek settlers from Asia Minor, Epirus and other regions and settled them on Macedonian territory, mostly on the lands of the exiled Macedonians, without their consent.


It is a well documented fact that during the early 1920's Greece began a campaign of denationalization by banning the Macedonian language and making it illegal to speak Macedonian in Macedonia. It then proceeded to forcibly change all peoples' names and toponyms.
5.. It is also a well documented fact that during the Greek Civil War, Greece exiled a large part of the Macedonian population, including the refugee children, illegally expropriated properties and issued them to new settlers.

The territory which Greece today calls "Greek Macedonia" is in fact "Greek Occupied Macedonia" and has been occupied since 1912. The so-called "Greek Macedonians" are not really Macedonians at all, in fact they are the "Greek Settlers" who Greece has been depositing on Macedonian lands since the Balkan wars (1912, 1913).


So let me guess this right, a liberation which was ongoing for years, and a majority Greek population in southern Macedonia, and no recognized "ethnic Macedonian" peoples or language at the time existed, and yet you have the nerve to say we invaded Macedonia without asking Macedonians? lol


Did we kill/kick out all "Macedonians" or do you have a big minority in Greece today? Which is it? :bash:

The LEGAL population exchange with Bulgaria is conviently forgotton?

Took populations from other areas? Greeks were settled in Macedonia (and other parts of Greece) because of a population exchange. Most refugees took the place of Muslims who left Macedonia, and yet somehow you pass this off as some horrible thing done deliberately by the Greek government? O.o


Many they have you people seriously brainwashed...

[Boogie]

So let me guess this right, a liberation which was ongoing for years, and a majority Greek population in southern Macedonia, and no recognized "ethnic Macedonian" peoples or language at the time existed, and yet you have the nerve to say we invaded Macedonia without asking Macedonians? lol


Did we kill/kick out all "Macedonians" or do you have a big minority in Greece today? Which is it? :bash:

The LEGAL population exchange with Bulgaria is conviently forgotton?

Took populations from other areas? Greeks were settled in Macedonia (and other parts of Greece) because of a population exchange. Most refugees took the place of Muslims who left Macedonia, and yet somehow you pass this off as some horrible thing done deliberately by the Greek government? O.o


Many they have you people seriously brainwashed...

:D :D :D
Philip of Macedon - King of Macedonia and conqueror of Illyria, Thrace, and Greece



King Philip II ruled Macedonia from 359 to 336 BC. He was born in Pella, the capital of the ancient Macedonian kingdom, as the youngest son of king Amyntas III. After his fathers death, Macedonia slowly disintegrated as his elder brothers and future kings Alexander II and Perdiccas III, unsuccessfully fought against the continuous attacks of the neighboring Thracians, Illyrians, and Greeks. The Thracians were already in possession of eastern Macedonia, the strongest Greek military power of Thebes continuously intervened in the internal Macedonian politics, the Greeks colonies on the edge of Macedonia, particularly Olynthus, were obstacle to Macedonia's economy and presented a military danger, and the invasions of the Illyrians put north-western Macedonia under their occupation.

Philip II was a hostage of the Greeks at Thebes, between 368 and 365 BC. But while in captivity there, he observed the military techniques of then the greatest power in Greece. When he returned to Macedonia he immediately set forth in helping his brother Perdiccas III, who was then king of Macedonia, to strengthen and reorganize the Macedonian army. But in 359, when king Perdiccas III set out to battle the Illyrians to free north-western Macedonia, the Macedonian army suffered a disastrous defeat. 4,000 Macedonian soldiers, including their king lay dead on the battlefield. The Illyrians enforced their occupation of north-western Macedonia and were now an even greater threat to the very existence of the Macedonian kingdom.

[airwings]

Axios

It is a well documented fact that Greece, in 1912, 1913 during the two Balkan wars, entered and forcibly occupied Macedonian territory illegally without the consent of the Macedonian people. It then, along with its partners Bulgaria and Serbia, went on a rampage bombing Macedonian villages and indiscriminately killing and murdering entire populations.

It is a well documented fact that as soon as Greece consolidated its hold on Greek Occupied Macedonia, it murdered or forcible exiled all Macedonians who refused to accept its conditions.

It is a well documented fact that after ethnically cleansing the
Macedonian population, Greece brought Greek settlers from Asia Minor, Epirus and other regions and settled them on Macedonian territory, mostly on the lands of the exiled Macedonians, without their consent.


It is a well documented fact that during the early 1920's Greece began a campaign of denationalization by banning the Macedonian language and making it illegal to speak Macedonian in Macedonia. It then proceeded to forcibly change all peoples' names and toponyms.
5.. It is also a well documented fact that during the Greek Civil War, Greece exiled a large part of the Macedonian population, including the refugee children, illegally expropriated properties and issued them to new settlers.

The territory which Greece today calls "Greek Macedonia" is in fact "Greek Occupied Macedonia" and has been occupied since 1912. The so-called "Greek Macedonians" are not really Macedonians at all, in fact they are the "Greek Settlers" who Greece has been depositing on Macedonian lands since the Balkan wars (1912, 1913).
I knew it.Make circles again!!!

[Mytilinios]

Phillip was from the Argead dynasty of Macedonia (as was Alexander his son), which it's descendents were Greeks from Argos. Do you dispute this?

[Boogie]

Phillip was from the Argead dynasty of Macedonia (as was Alexander his son), which it's descendents were Greeks from Argos. Do you dispute this?
:D :D :D :D
The territory of Ancient Macedonia, in the pre-historic period had been settled by many tribes. It extended in the south-western part of the actual ethnic and geographical border of Macedonia, in the central part of the Balkan Peninsula. The name "Macedon" for the first time was mentioned in the 8th century B.C. and it defined the eponym of the Macedonians. The region north-east of the mountain Pindus to the Prespa Lake, was determined primarily by the name "Macedonia". From this space the Macedonian tribes moved south-eastwards and created a nucleus of the future Macedonian state (the region between the rivers Ludias, Moglenitsa nowadays, and Axius, Vardar nowadays).

Autochthonous ancient Macedonian tribes had lived in tribal communities being led by their leaders till the middle of the 6th century B.C. Herodotus considered king Perdiccas I (650 - 630 B.C.) a founder of the Macedonian kingdom. During the following centuries the Macedonian tribes gradually united themselves into a unique centralized state which ascent was noted in the reign of the Alexander I Philhellene (498/495 - 452 B.C.). In the 5th century B.C. a gold coin-stather was introduced and the capital of the kingdom was transferred from the city of Aegeae into the city of Pella.

Under the leadership of Philip II (357/355 - 336 B.C.), the kingdom of Macedonia had a great political and economic boom. A regular army (the Macedonian phalanx), a unique coin and a centralized machinery of government were established on the whole territory of Macedonia. Thus were created conditions for a complete formation of the antique Macedonian people. Under the leadership of Philip II Macedonia developed into a mighty kingdom establishing its hegemony over the Balkans. After the victory at Chaeronea (338 B.C.), Philip II imposed the Macedonian hegemony over the Greek polises (Athens, Thebes, Corint etc.). His son Alexander III the Great, in the history known as Alexander of Macedon (336 - 323 B.C.) destroyed the Persian Empire after the famous victories at Granikos, Issus and Gaugamela, expanding the hegemony of Macedonia till Egypt and India, proclaiming himself a czar (331 B.C.). After the death of Alexander the Great his multiethnic empire disintegrated into a few independent states (Macedonia, Thrace, Egypt, Asia and Pergamon).

After the long lasting wars Macedonia was conquered and became a Roman province (148 B.C.). The antique Macedonian people were subjected to Romanization, but they preserved their ethnic features (customs, religion and language).

During the Roman rule the Macedonian trade considerably developed. The important main road "Via Egnatia" connected the cities Dirahon (Drach nowadays), Lychnidus (Ohrid nowadays), Heraclea (Bitola nowadays) and Thessalonica (Salonica nowadays) with the capital Bysantion (Constantinople, Istanbul nowadays). During that period the Macedonian cities Stobi, Scupi, Salonica etc. had been completely developed.

After the Roman Empire division into Eastern and Western one in 395, Macedonia was included into the Eastern Roman Empire (Bysantium) till the first half of the 7th century when it was settled by the Slaves.

[airwings]

Boogie now my lessons in your historical unaccurracies



The name "Macedon" for the first time was mentioned in the 8th century B.C. and it defined the eponym of the Macedonians.

You didn't tell us what is the meaning of macedon or from whom mention the Greek name of Macedon.

The word Macedon (Makedwn)) is very likely to come from the greek word 'makednos' first mentioned in Homer's Odyssey (Od.H106), and later by Herodotos, who called 'Makednon ethnos' the various Doric tribes among which he included the Macedonians (Her. I.56, VIII.43).
The word 'Makednos' has the meaning of long, tall, and highlander. Some archaeologists believe that the Macedonians were called so because they were tall. Nowadays the meaning of 'highlander' is more prevalent. This is because Macedonians used to live early in prehistoric times in the mountains of Vermio in Greece.


Autochthonous ancient Macedonian tribes had lived in tribal communities being led by their leaders till the middle of the 6th century B.C.

There is not autochthonus Macedonian tribes.The Macedonian tribes invaded and conquered the local tribes(Thracian and Paeonians) as the ancient writer mention.
The first Hellenic tribes of Dorians and Achaeoi resided in Macedonia in prehistoric times, first in Emathia near mountain Vermion and later expanded northwards and eastwards to cover the lands outlined in Thoukides description. Herodotos mentioned that around the 9th century BC the Macedonian State had the city of Aegae as its capital and that either Caranos or Perdikkas was considered the founder of the Macedonian dynasty.


His son Alexander III the Great, in the history known as Alexander of Macedon (336 - 323 B.C.) destroyed the Persian Empire after the famous victories at Granikos, Issus and Gaugamela, expanding the hegemony of Macedonia till Egypt and India, proclaiming himself a czar (331 B.C.).

Alaxander never called himself as Czar.Czar is a Slavic word.
We have testimonies like King and Hegemon.
After the long lasting wars Macedonia was conquered and became a Roman province (148 B.C.). The antique Macedonian people were subjected to Romanization, but they preserved their ethnic features (customs, religion and language).


It's true that the ancient Macedonian keep theirs heritage.During that period we have found plenty Greek(not Romans) inscriptions and of course the major of all is that Paul used Greek translator in order to teach the Macedonians the Christianism.

Under the leadership of Philip II Macedonia developed into a mighty kingdom establishing its hegemony over the Balkans. After the victory at Chaeronea (338 B.C.), Philip II imposed the Macedonian hegemony over the Greek polises (Athens, Thebes, Corint etc.).

It's true.Hegemon is Greek word and mean the leader of the Greek alliance according the Corinth Treauty.

[LOU WEED]

Alaxander



so u wanna tell me "ALAXANDER" is greek even if u have no idea how to write his name??????O.o O.o O.o O.o O.o O.o O.o O.o

[Balozi]

stop trolling

[LOU WEED]

stop hellenizing.......:thumbdown

[Torontezos]

You're picking on someone's typo to discredit their argument, rather infantile and hence can be considered trolling. Balozi just pointed out what you did, and believe me, there have been many issues where the Greek members of this forum did not agree with Balozi, so he does not hellenize everything, but rather sees things between Greece & FYROM from a neutral point of view.

[airwings]

hahahahaha!!!!
Now I ve hear it all.
Balozi stop the Hellenize the forum!!:O

any way Lou

Αλέξανδρος Φιλίππου,
Can you read it? :) is the same as Alexander identified him self.

[Axios]

The word 'Makednos' has the meaning of long, tall, and highlander. Axios

Macedonia name is holy, and mean Mother of God.

Father, glorify your Name! Then a voise came from heaven: "I have glorified it ,and I will glorified it again John 12,28 ADONAI M+ADONAI *MADONAI Ma/Dona i MA(KE)DONAI

Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake. (John11,14) a bit of analyse here "I am in the Father and the Father in me" Father /Jesus on this way does not match so let's move backwords and with Macedonian language help let's try to find a corect explanation on this Jesus words Fact is that the Bible is writen for God as for He But if we suposed that the name ,again names are focus in my searches Father is fully originated in the name Mother Father *F->*M Mother Ma/ther Matera *Ma/TERA ---------------- *N->*L->*R ----------------- *Ma/TeNa *Ma/DoNa Ma-Mother Ma(Ke)/Dona Majka -Mother Than on this way we may have much better explanation of those Our's Lord word as name Jesus originated in Don as I wrote above.

And those changes of Father Mother have had taken a place from the times ,again my favorite one's: http://pub18.ezboard.com/fbalkansfrm14.showMessage?topicID=117.to pic ---------- Q:How is it that the Maltese Fertility Cults have been such a secret? It’s likely that the early people who had written language never knew about them. __________ A; Simple very simple Hellens were destroyers.Since they're arrived .. .cult of Patricharcath been established ________ at the way ----- Make ------ *K->*T MaTe (e-i) MaTi M/ati -M aтi aтa oтa Ota+c Otac -- or from --- Make in genitive Majce by same principle Majce M/ajчe -M Аjчe Ojчe Oичe Oчe ---------- and from -- Don Dzon z->s Ds o n 'S oi n 'S i n than maybe word Makedon could have a meaning as ----------------- Make Don "Oce Sin --------------- Mace Don Father Son --------------

Genesis 1:1 The box of Creations ; 26.And the God said,"Let us make man in our image,in our likeness,and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air ,over the livestock,over all the earth and over all the creatures that move along the goround ." Genesis 1:26 Let's anylase : What does God said : He saing this : -"Let's us make man in our image ,in our likeness ,and let them ..." Lets focus at the plural used form in the sentence -"Lets's us make man in our likeness,and let them ..." God->Bog ->Make 26. And *Make said,"Let us make man in our image and let them ... Let's anlalyse 26. And * Make said" Let US (* Make and *Don) make man in OUR (as WE are )image and let THEM(You and Me ) US ;OUR ; (YOU and ME ) 26. And *Make said ," Let *Make and * Don make man in OUR image (as WE are like )" ... Makedon as word what could help to make the thinks clear even at some most diffical part's into the Holy Bible

Could we say that Bible is one of the biggest historical soures ,and what could happend if we try to give a different meaning for a same texts . Lets read from the Second book of Exodus ,by Moses Ten Commands -------------------------------------------- http://www.carm.org/kjv/Ex/Ex_20.htm 1 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods ... Second book of Moses Exodus 20-1-17 Lets see this Commands as given in Macedonian language --------------------------------- 1.Jas sum Gospod Bog tvoj .... I will try to analise this Two Words supposing that the title Gospod could be from short femile gender form *Gospa 2.Jas sum *Gospa *Bog tvoj *Gospa from *Dama *GOS PA *G' S PA *G'S PA *G'S->*K'S->*H->*D *D' PA *P->*B->*V->*N->*M *D ' M *D A M A ~Lady DAMA -------------- 2.Jas sum *Dama *Bog tvoj... 2. Jas sum * Dona *Boeke tvoj 2.Jas sum * Dona * Majke tvoja 2.Jas sum * Dona * Make tvoja if we make a change than we could have this situation 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 2". I am * Don your *Make ,wich have brought ........" 2. "I am Macedon ",which have brought ..... 3 Thou shalt have no other gods ... What you'll say what could happent when we read the Bozjeto Slovo na malku podrug nacin ?


In the text about 10 commandments am guessing that the word GOSPOD what is a title in Macedonian language and its standing for GOD as a shortest form from the word GOSPODAR what is standing for LORD But what could happend is we split this word into two halfs GOSPODAR GOSPO/DAR GOSPA/DARI GOSPA/DARUVA and that seems to be my point DONA GIFT becaming something very scarefull as Master

And so Macedonia is native place Mother Home, how in our Macedonian anthem "Dont cry Macedonia Mother dear"

[Mytilinios]

LMAO

[airwings]

Axios are you the known Homer Makedonski??:trampolin with the amazing derivations in the Greek words!!:bash:

[Torontezos]

Holy crap that was hilarious!!!!!
:hysterica

[Philip]

Pathetic...

You don't need a Greek source to tell the word "Macedonia" is Greek:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=macedonia&searchmode=none


Macedonia from L. Macedonius "Macedonian," from Gk. Makedones, lit. "highlanders" or "the tall ones," related to makednos "long, tall," makros "long, large."

The same etymology can be found in the following sources:

Bardsley, Charles Wareing, English Surnames, London: Chatto and Windus, 5th ed., 1915.

Barney, Stephen A., Word-Hoard, Yale University Press, 1977.

Barnhart, Robert K., ed., Barnhart Dictionary of Etymology, H.W. Wilson Co., 1988.

Buck, Carl Darling, A Dictionary of Selected Synonyms in the Principal Indo-European Languages, University of Chicago, 1949, reprinted 1988.

Chapman, Robert L., with Barbara Ann Kipfer, Harold Wentworth, Dictionary of American Slang, 3rd ed., HarperCollins, 1998.

Chappel, C., Dictionary of Buckish Slang, University Wit and Pickpocket Eloquence, London, 1811.

Einhorn, E., Old French, a Concise Handbook, Cambridge Univ. Press, 1974.

Elson, Louis C., Elson's Music Dictionary, Boston: Oliver Ditson Co., 1905.

Farmer, David Hugh, Oxford Dictionary of Saints, Oxford Paperback, 1978.

Fowler, H.W., A Dictionary of Modern English Usage, Oxford Univ. Press, 1926.

A Dictionary of Modern English Usage, 2nd edition, revised by Sir Ernest Gowers, Oxford Univ. Press, 1965.

Gelling, Margaret, Signposts to the Past: Place-Names and the History of England, Chichester: Phillimore & Co., 3rd ed., 1997.

Gildersleeve, Basil L., Gildersleeve's Latin Grammar, Macmillan & Co., 1895.

Gordon, E.V., An Introduction to Old Norse, 2nd ed., rev., Oxford University Press, 1956.

Grimm, Jacob, and Wilhelm Grimm Deutsches Wörterbuch, Leipzig, S. Hirzel, 1911.

Hall, J.R. Clark, A Concise Anglo-Saxon Dictionary, Cambridge University Press, 1894, reprint with supplement by Herbert D. Meritt, 1984, University of Toronto Press.

Hatefeld, Adolphe, & Arsène Darmesteter, Dictionnaire Général de la Langue Française, Paris, Librairie Delagrave, 1926.

Holthauzen, Ferd., Etymologisches Wörterbuch der Englischen Sprache, Leipzig, Bernhard Tauchnitz, 1927.

Kent, Roland G., Old Persian, New Haven, Conn., American Oriental Society, 1953.

Klein, Dr. Ernest, A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the English Language, Amsterdam: Elsevier Scientific Publishing Co., 1971.

Kluge, Friedrich, Etymologisches Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache, 2nd ed., Straßburg, Carl F. Trubner, 1883.

Lass, Roger, Old English, A Historical Linguistic Companion, Cambridge University Press, 1994.

Liddell, Henry George, and Robert Scott, eds., Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon, Oxford Univ. Press, 1883.

Mencken, H.L., The American Language, Alfred A. Knopf, 4th ed., 1965.

Mills, A.D., A Dictionary of English Place Names, 2nd ed., Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1998.

Monier-Williams, Sir Monier, A Sanskrit-English Dictionary, Etymologically and Philologically arranged, Oxford University Press, 1899.

Onions, C.T., ed., Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, Oxford University Press, 1933.

Partridge, Eric, Slang To-day and Yesterday, 3rd ed., Barnes & Noble, 1950.

Rawson, Hugh, Wicked Words, Crown Publishers, 1989.

Shipley, Joseph T., The Origins of English Words, Johns Hopkins University Press, 1984.

Thayer, Joseph Henry, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, American Book Co., 1889.

Tucker, T.G., Etymological Dictionary of Latin, Ares Publishers, 1976 (reprint of 1931 edition).

Upton, Clive & J.D.A. Widdowson, An Atlas of English Dialect, Oxford Univ. Press, 1996.

Venezky, Richard L., The American Way of Spelling The Guilford Press, 1999.

Watkins, Calvert, ed., The American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots, 2nd ed., Houghton Mifflin Co., 2000.

Weekley, Ernest, An Etymological Dictionary of Modern English, John Murray, 1921; reprint 1967, Dover Publications.

Wilson, R.M., and Reaney, Percy H., Dictionary of English Surnames, 3rd ed., Oxford Univ. Press, 1995.

No bad references huh? Oxford, Cambrige, Toronto etc...

[Axios]

so u wanna tell me "ALAXANDER" is greek even if u have no idea how to write his name??????

Alexander czar Macedonian

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQYsVFH0vcM

This is the truth

[tsunami]

The river stream brought you back.

Oh, good, good, ill play with you.

Cu in a couple of hours!

Ciao

[Philip]

Alexander czar Macedonian

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQYsVFH0vcM

This is the truth

Yeah, now I'm convinced with this video. :bash:

By the way in the movie Alexander says "For the glory of Greece" :whistling

[WisdomSeeker]

1st: Hello Axios. Where have you been all this time mate? Making the video on youtube? Welcome back

2nd: A youtube video is a very trustworthy source when we talk about history matters,everybody knows that:common051

[KASTRIOTI]

Hilarious video!!!1 :D :D

That music put me in the mood for some Raki and cheese!! :D

[WisdomSeeker]

Hilarious video!!!1 :D :D

That music put me in the mood for some Raki and cheese!! :D

im in for some Raki! Its cold outside,it would do us very good!

:drunk: :D

[Philip]

Me too Kastrioti...Do you have any good stuff?:D

[Makeveli]

lol :D

[Thorn]

Alexander III the Great, the King of Macedonia and conqueror of the Persian Empire is considered one of the greatest military geniuses of all times. He was inspiration for later conquerors such as Hannibal the Carthaginian, the Romans Pompey and Caesar, and Napoleon. Alexander was born in 356 BC in Pella, the ancient capital of Macedonia. He was son of Philip II, King of Macedonia, and Olympias, the princess of neighboring Epirus. He spent his childhood watching his father transforming Macedonia into a great military power, winning victory after victory on the battlefields throughout the Balkans. When he was 13, Philip hired the Greek philosopher Aristotle to be Alexander’s personal tutor. During the next three years Aristotle gave Alexander a training in rhetoric and literature and stimulated his interest in science, medicine, and philosophy, all of which became of importance in Alexander’s later life. In 340, when Philip assembled a large Macedonian army and invaded Thrace, he left his 16 years old son with the power to rule Macedonia in his absence as regent, which shows that even at such young age Alexander was recognized as quite capable. But as the Macedonian army advanced deep into Thrace, the Thracian tribe of Maedi bordering north-eastern Macedonia rebelled and posed a danger to the country. Alexander assembled an army, led it against the rebels, and with swift action defeated the Maedi, captured their stronghold, and renamed it after himself to Alexandropolis.

Two years later in 338 BC, Philip gave his son a commanding post among the senior generals as the Macedonian army invaded Greece. At the Battle of Chaeronea the Greeks were defeated and Alexander displayed his bravery by destroying the elite Greek force, the Theban Secret Band. Some ancient historians recorded that the Macedonians won the battle thanks to his bravery.

But not too long after the defeat of the Greeks at Chaeronea, the royal family split apart when Philip married Cleopatra, a Macedonian girl of high nobility. At the wedding banquet, Cleopatra's uncle, general Attalus, made a remark about Philip fathering a ‘legitimate’ heir, i.e., one that was of pure Macedonian blood. Alexander threw his cup at the man, blasting him for calling him 'bastard child’. Philip stood up, drew his sward, and charged at Alexander, only to trip and fall on his face in his drunken stupor at which Alexander shouted:

"Here is the man who was making ready to cross from Europe to Asia, and who cannot even cross from one table to another without losing his balance."

He then took his mother and fled the country to Epirus. Although allowed to return later, Alexander remained isolated and insecure at the Macedonian court. In the spring of 336 BC, with Philip’s Persian invasion already set in motion, the king was assassinated by a young Macedonian noble Pausanias, during the wedding ceremony in Aegae, the old capital of Macedonia. Why Pausanias killed the Macedonian king is a question that puzzled both ancient and modern historians. There is a claim that Pausanias was driven into committing the murder because he was denied justice by the king when he sought his support in punishing the Cleopatra's uncle Attalus for earlier mistreatment. But there are also reports that that both Olympias and Alexander were responsible for the assassination, by driving the young men into committing the act. That might explain why Pausanias was instantly put to death by Alexander's close friends as he attempted to flee the scene, instead of being captured alive and tried before the Macedonian assembly. Philip, the great Macedonian conqueror was dead, the men who liberated his own country and brought if from the edge of the abyss into a world power. His dream of conquering the Persian Empire now lays on his successor, his son king Alexander III.

[Thorn]

Once he ascended on the Macedonian throne, Alexander quickly disposed of all of his domestic enemies by ordering their execution. But soon he had to act outside Macedonia. Philip’s death caused series of rebellions among the conquered nations and the Illyrians, Thracians, and Greeks saw a chance for independence. Alexander acted swiftly. He forced his way into Greece despite the roads leading to the country being blocked by the Thessalians. As soon as he restored Macedonian rule in northern Greece, he marched into southern Greece. His speed surprised the Greeks and by the end of the summer 336 BC they had no other choice but to acknowledge his authority.

Believing the Greece would remain calm, Alexander returned to Macedonia, marched east into Thrace, and campaigned as far as the Danube river. He defeated the Thracians and Tribalians in series of battles and drove the rebels beyond the river. Then he marched back across Macedonia and on his return crushed in a single week the threatening Illyrians, before they could receive additional reinforcements.

But now in Greece, upon rumors of his death, a major revolt broke out that engulfed the whole nation. Enraged, Alexander marched south covering 240 miles in two weeks appearing before the walls of Thebes with large Macedonian army. He let the Greeks know that it was not too late for them to change their minds, but the Thebans confident in their position called for all the Greeks who wished to set Greece free to join them against the Macedonians. They were not aware that the Athenians and the Peloponnesians, stunned by the speed of the Macedonian king, quickly reconsidered their options and were now awaiting the outcome of the battle before they make their next move.

Alexander's general Perdiccas attacked the gates, broke into the city, and Alexander moved with the rest of the army behind him to prevent the Thebans from cutting him off. The Macedonians stormed the city, killing everyone in sight, women and children included. 6,000 Thebans citizens died and 30,000 more were sold as slaves. The city where Alexander's father was kept as hostage for three years, was plundered, sacked, burned, and razed to the ground, just like Philip acted with Methone, Olynthus, and the rest of the Greek cities in Chalcidice. Only the temples and the house of the poet Pindar were spared from distraction. This was example to the rest of Greece and Athens and the other Greek city-states quickly rethought their quest for freedom. Greece remained under Macedonian rule.

[Thorn]

Meanwhile in Greece, the Greeks under the leadership of Sparta rose to a rebellion against the Macedonian occupation. Antipater was in Thrace at the time and the Greeks took the opportunity to push back the Macedonian forces. But their initial victory did not last for long as Antipater returned with a large army, defeated the rebels, and regained Greece. 5,300 Greeks, including the Spartan king Agis were killed, while the Macedonians lost 3,500 men.

In Asia, the news of the beginning of the Greek rebellion had Alexander so deeply worried, that he immediately sent money to Antipater to counter it. And when he learned that the Greeks were defeated, he proclaimed the end of the "Hellenic Crusade" and discharged all-Greek forces in his army. He no longer needed these hostages and potential troublemakers.

To win the support of the Persian aristocracy Alexander appointed many Persians as provincial governors in his new empire. He adopted the Persian dress for ceremonies, gave orders for Persians to be enlisted in the army, and encouraged the Macedonians to marry Persian women.

But the Macedonians were unhappy with Alexander's Orientalization for they were proud of their Macedonian customs, culture, and language. His increasingly Oriental behavior eventually led to conflict with the Macedonian nobles and some Greeks in the train. In 330 BC series of allegations were brought up against some of Alexander's officers concerning a plot to murder him. Alexander tortured and executed the accused leader of the conspiracy, Parmenio's son Philotas, the commander of the cavalry. Several other officers were also executed according to Macedonian law, in order to eliminate the alleged attempt on Alexander's life. During the trial of Philotas Alexander raised the question of the use of the ancient Macedonian language. He spoke:




"'The Macedonians are about to pass judgment upon you; I wish to know whether you will use their native tongue in addressing them.' Philotas replied: 'Besides the Macedonians there are many present who, I think, will more easily understand what I shall say if I use the same language which you have employed.' Than said the king: 'Do you not see how Philotas loathes even the language of his fatherland? For he alone disdains to learn it. But let him by all means speak in whatever way he desires, provided that you remember that he holds out customs in as much abhorrence as our language.'" (Quintus Curtius Rufus 6.9.34-36)

[Thorn]

The trial of Philotas took place in Asia before a multiethnic public, which has accepted Greek as their common language. Alexander spoke Macedonian with his conationals, but used Greek in addressing the Greeks and the Asians, as Greek was widely taken as international language in ancient times. Like Carthaginian, Illyrian, and Thracian, ancient Macedonian was not recorded in writing. However, on the bases of about hundred glosses, Macedonian words noted and explained by Greek writers, some place names from Macedonia, and names of individuals, most scholars believe that ancient Macedonian was a separate Indo-European language. Evidence from phonology indicates that the ancient Macedonian language was distinct from ancient Greek and closer to the Thracian and Illyrian languages. Some modern writers have erroneously concluded that the Macedonians spoke Greek based on few Greek inscriptions discovered in Macedonia, but that is by no means a proof that the Macedonian was not a distinct language. Greek inscriptions were also found in Thrace and Illyria, the Thracians even inscribed their coins and vessels in Greek, and we know that both the Illyrians and the Thracians were not Greeks who had distinct languages.

[Thorn]

After his death, nearly all the noble Susa marriages dissolved, which shows that the Macedonians despised the idea. There never came to unity between Macedonians and Persians and there wasn't even a unity among the Macedonians. Alexander's death opened the anarchic age of the Successors and a bloody Macedonian civil war for power followed.

As soon as the news of Alexander's death were known, the Greeks rebelled yet again and so begun the Lamian War. The Macedonians were defeated and expelled from Greece, but then Antipater received reinforcements from Craterus who brought to Macedonia the 10,000 veterans discharged at Opis. Antipater and Craterus jointly marched into Greece, defeated the Greek army at Crannon in Thessaly and brought the war to an end. Greece will remain under Macedonian rule for the next one and a half century.

In Asia the Macedonian commanders who served Alexander fought each other for power. Perdiccas and Meleager were murdered, Antigonus rose to control most of Asia, but his growth of power brought the other Macedonian generals in coalition against him. He was killed in battle and the Macedonian Empire split into four main kingdoms - the one of Seleucus (Asia), Ptolemy (Egypt), Lysimachus (Thrace), and Antipater's son Cassander (Macedonia, including Greece).

The rise of Rome put an end to Macedonian kingdoms. Macedonia and Greece were conquered in 167/145 BC, Seleucid Asia by 65 BC, and Cleopatra VII, the last Macedonian descendent of Ptolemy committed suicide in 30 BC, after which Egypt was added to the Roman Empire.

With the split of the Roman Empire into Western and Eastern (Byzantium), the Macedonians came to play a major role in Byzantium. The period of rule of the Macedonian dynasty which ruled the Eastern Roman Empire from 867 to 1056 is known as the "Golden Age" of the Empire. The Eastern Roman Empire fell in the 15th century and Macedonia, Greece, and the whole southern Balkans came under the rule of the Turkish Empire.

[Thorn]

Greece gained its independence at the beginning of the 19th century with the help of the Western European powers, while Macedonia which continued to be occupied by foreign powers, gained independence in 1991, but only over 37% of its historical ethnic territory. With the Balkan Wars of 1912/13 Macedonia was occupied by the armies of its neighbors - 51% of it's territory came under, and still is under the rule of Greece, while the remaining 12% are still occupied by Bulgaria. Both Greece and Bulgaria had been condemned numerous times for the oppression of their large Macedonian minorities which they had stripped off basic human rights, ever since the partition of the country.

[Thorn]

Wanna learn more? :victory:

[tsunami]

Its very late now, and am already very tired.

Mark my words, Fyromian.

When your country, is allowed to bear the noble name, come in and play smart.

Until then, go back to your cave.


Also, just to play with you.

All this what you say is true.


However: Which greece was occupied, invaded?

Greece did not exist.

I guess you forgot to mention that.

Hellenic consciousness existed, and that is why Alexander's expedition is termed Hellenic because he deemed himself greek as the the other greek city-states deemed themselves.

Yes, he was Macedonian, like Athenians were Ionians, like Spartans were Dorians.

Go check Hesiod...the whole geneology is attested down there.


Also, would you care to tell us what is the linguae homines...of the Macedonians, Aetolians and Acarnanians?

Anyway, thanks for coming, its been a while since your connationals, have ridiculed themselves.

Some of us, have gotten rusty....am sure you know what i mean.

Before you copy paste, such crap again, try to answer these simple questions, first.

[Thorn]

Which greece was occupied, invaded?

Greece did not exist.
Greece did not existed, that is so true. But,why didn't you tell that to Oliver Stone before he made that movie...remember? "For the glory of Greece"?:whistling


Also, would you care to tell us what is the linguae homines...of the Macedonians?
Oh...but didn't you knew that "Greeks" were calling the Macedonians "barbarians"??? As well as everybody that has learned history would know what that meant. (A phrase used by the "Hellenic" tribes for every ancient nation that didn't spoke or had "hellenic" culture...):D

So, about the language that Ancient Macedonians had spoken....it is a large theme that I probably should write in a separate post.


P.S. There is abolutely no way that you have read the whole text for so little time of replying.
:victory:

[tsunami]

Use your dictionary, it would save us alot of time.

I can educate you on History, but i will not educate you in language(definitions) as well.

Your "thick" mind, is no more capable than this.

[Thorn]

Your insults are not making any effect on me...Please be civilised...

And please...I answered your questions...Why don't you answer mine? :thumbdown

[tsunami]

I feel sorry for you fyromian, because all Nations follow a timeline, they start forming local societies, then tribal, they fight wars, they create literature.

They fight and fight and fight through the centuries.

They created of what you term nation, after a shedding, blood, sweat and tears.

And then again, you got a bunch of brainwashed half albanian-half serb-half bulgar-half greek, who havent shed any blood, who were never able to live peacefully with each other, let alone, unify as you have done under a stolen banner and nam, who come here and not only steal what is rightfully yours, after all the fight you have made to create it, and play smart with you.


Nations have a timeline, yet you dont. Get it through your brainwashed head. We have much more important issues to discuss, rather a bunch of brain-dead, propagandists.

[tsunami]

Your insults are not making any effect on me...Please be civilised...

And please...I answered your questions...Why don't you answer mine? :thumbdown
I have answered your questions a million times.

check the forum, if you believe that something is not in place, provide info and refute it.


This issue is closed in here, and am not gonna repeat myself.

Enough, with all this propaganda, your whole stance has been refuted a million times in here.

Read before you make anymore.

When you join a community you should better make yourself familiar with the traits of the community.

Of course, my insults dont work with you, cause you have got nothing in there.

[Thorn]

Civilisation? Anyone? That is all I'm asking...

And no, I checked all the pages in the back and there is no answer to my questions.

P.S. This is not a propaganda, this is discusion between human beings.

[WisdomSeeker]

Civilisation? Anyone? That is all I'm asking...

And no, I checked all the pages in the back and there is no answer to my questions.

P.S. This is not a propaganda, this is discusion between human beings.


I will answer your ''questions'' if you dont mind.:)

i quote:


Two years later in 338 BC, Philip gave his son a commanding post among the senior generals as the Macedonian army invaded Greece. At the Battle of Chaeronea the Greeks were defeated and Alexander displayed his bravery by destroying the elite Greek force, the Theban Secret Band. Some ancient historians recorded that the Macedonians won the battle thanks to his bravery.

Macedonians defeated the ''Greeks''??

Hm..interesting point of view. On one hand you state there is a ''tribe'' (lets suppose it is of non greek ethnic stock for the moment),and on the other you just classify all the opponent force under one name which depicts nationality: Greeks. LOL.

Many years ago,ive learned in school that the Battle of Chaeronia was fought between Macedonians on one side and Thebans,and Athenians on the other.

So we have had a war between the macedonian kingdom and 2 greek states,not the ''greeks'' on the whole as you are trying to imply.

Now,next time,dont be so quick on stating false things.It does not make you look good.

i quote again:


He let the Greeks know that it was not too late for them to change their minds, but the Thebans confident in their position called for all the Greeks who wished to set Greece free to join them against the Macedonians. They were not aware that the Athenians and the Peloponnesians, stunned by the speed of the Macedonian king, quickly reconsidered their options and were now awaiting the outcome of the battle before they make their next move.

You state ''Peloponnesians''. I ask you directly:

Were they of non greek stock? You dont call them greeks as well,but ''Peloponnesians''. If they are not called Greeks,they are not of greek stock,are they?

i quote again:


This was example to the rest of Greece and Athens and the other Greek city-states quickly rethought their quest for freedom. Greece remained under Macedonian rule.


and:


Meanwhile in Greece, the Greeks under the leadership of Sparta rose to a rebellion against the Macedonian occupation.


A part of Greece remained under ''Macedonian rule'',yet another part was under Spartan rule,since you have stated that it was Sparta which lead the rest of the Greeks.

Was that part under ''Spartan'' rule? This means that Sparta was not of greek stock,since it held the Greeks under its rule,wasnt it?

Im just following your logic here,nothing more.:)

Take head,im not finished:



And when he learned that the Greeks were defeated, he proclaimed the end of the "Hellenic Crusade" and discharged all-Greek forces in his army.

Interesting choice of words. ''Hellenic Crusade''?:doh:

Crusade implies the existance of Knights,a term of the middle ages. It was the Teutonic Knights who introduced this term to human history.
Be more careful when you discuss about different historical periods please,if you want the others to take you seriously.


During the trial of Philotas Alexander raised the question of the use of the ancient Macedonian language.

Aww..yes,the philotas trial. Im aware of this FYROMIAN argument. well,here is what i have to say:

http://www.history.ccsu.edu/elias/AlexandrosPatrius.htm

here is an essay of a Greek proffessor ,DR in history,of the department of history of Central Conn. State University,USA.

i will spare you the whole of it,since you are so eager to discuss about history,just read it yourself:

i will quote only his conclusion:


These instances of evidence of a Makedonian mode of speech date, more or less, from the Roman imperial period and later, although their roots may possibly go back to the time of Alexander and after.

and


n any event, the significance that could be attached to Curtius' patrius sermo as testimony of a separate Makedonian language23 is compromised by its lateness and by its introduction in a highly charged context, as also observed above. Moreover, with the contradiction noted above Curtius' patrius sermo motif is cancelled out and is of no particular importance as to the Makedones' mode of speech. 24 And this is the more true because of the overwhelming evidence, principally onomastic and epigraphic, that the speech of the Makedones was Greek. 25

or would you like me to express MY opinion perhaps about it? Ok,here it is:

Livius describes Filotas’ trial in front of Macedonian army. Alexander asks him if he is to apologize in Macedonian speech as the heritage says. Filotas answers:


"Praeter Macedones plerique adsunt, quos facilius quae dicam percepturos arbitror, si eadem lingua fuero usus qua tu egisti; non ob aliud, credo, quam ut oratio tua intelligi posset a pluribus".

(latin passage is quoted from the original text).As you see,i like to provide the entire passage on its prototype latin ;)

That is :

Apart Macedonians, there are many people around (mainly Greeks or Grecophones) who will understand me MORE EASILY if I speak in the language you have spoken for the same reason. (You may find this translation in several FYROMIAN sites on the Net)

The crucial words are the words “more easily” (quos facilius). Filotas says that if he speaks in Koine (Greek) then the non Macedonian people around will understand him more easily than if he speaks in Macedonian. This implies that if Filotas spoke in Macedonian then the non Macedonian people around would understand him but not that easily. But isn’t this the definition of a dialect? So, Macedonian was a Greek dialect.

So the passage is a clear argument for the greekness of the macedonian dialect ;)

[WisdomSeeker]

Lets go on:

i quote:


Evidence from phonology indicates that the ancient Macedonian language was distinct from ancient Greek and closer to the Thracian and Illyrian languages.

Macedonian language closer to illyrian?

Can you state/quote/find me please any historical source stating so?

Because i can find you many instances where Macedonians needed translators to communicate with the Illyrians,yet not even in one do we find that they needed them when they spoke with the rest of the greeks.



The rise of Rome put an end to Macedonian kingdoms. Macedonia and Greece were conquered in 167/145 BC, Seleucid Asia by 65 BC, and Cleopatra VII, the last Macedonian descendent of Ptolemy committed suicide in 30 BC, after which Egypt was added to the Roman Empire.

Aww Cleopatra...the last queen of Egypt,last Ptolemy family member...what language did she speak? Be VERY careful on your answer,because we are talking about the hellenistic era.;)



Greece gained its independence at the beginning of the 19th century with the help of the Western European powers, while Macedonia which continued to be occupied by foreign powers, gained independence in 1991, but only over 37% of its historical ethnic territory. With the Balkan Wars of 1912/13 Macedonia was occupied by the armies of its neighbors - 51% of it's territory came under, and still is under the rule of Greece, while the remaining 12% are still occupied by Bulgaria. Both Greece and Bulgaria had been condemned numerous times for the oppression of their large Macedonian minorities which they had stripped off basic human rights, ever since the partition of the country.

NAME ANY HISTORICAL SOURCE MENTIONING ETHNIC MACEDONIANS PRIOR TO 1900.

try hard,because it will be impossible to do so:P


Wanna learn more?


Of course. im always open to ''history''.

:victory:

[Thorn]

NAME ANY HISTORICAL SOURCE MENTIONING ETHNIC MACEDONIANS PRIOR TO 1900.

try hard,because it will be impossible to do so:P

No problem, do you want them with pics or just texts? :) I'll put the both :P

Just tell me a year and I'll put a here letters, books newspapers and everything you need to get what I am saying ;)


P.S. You didn't mentioned in the posts above on what ancient historian statement, you are making conclusions, you didn't mentioned your sources...I'll be glad to see who they are, please?

Peace :victory:

[WisdomSeeker]

Be careful,because ive put in my quote the key word:

ETHNIC MACEDONIANS.;)


P.S. You didn't mentioned in the posts above on what ancient historian statement, you are making conclusions, you didn't mentioned your sources...I'll be glad to see who they are, please?

I have just used your logic my friend.

As for the sources,just search the forum here. I have posted them before many times,cant do it with any new member who states things like you do.

I have answered your questions. If you feel i ve skipped any,please state so. Yet ive asked a couple myself,to which i wait answers from your part.

[Thorn]

I have just used your logic my friend.


Please man, history is not based on logic...it is based on facts...

Now, tell me a period to tell you about ethnic Macedonians ;)

[WisdomSeeker]

Please man, history is not based on logic...it is based on facts...

Now, tell me a period to tell you about ethnic Macedonians ;)


It was not me who made own conclusions,neither did i distort them in my post.

Just answer the questions ive asked,as i have done as well.

There is no debate if one of us is asking constantly without listening to his interlocutor.

Unless your purpose is only to copy-paste from ''dubbious sites'' your stuff here and promote your propaganda.

Not gonna happen.

[Thorn]

Ok, a short overview:

500 B.C. - 500 A.D.

Macedonia and the Macedonians as distinct nation in the works of the ancient Greek, Roman, and Jewish historians, as well in the works of the modern German, French, English, American historians.

586 A.D.

From the "Miracles of St. Demetrius of Salonika, I ": "...For if one was to imagine them in a heap, not only the Macedonians gathered in Salonika... Certainly he who inspired the Macedonians with courage..." Mirac. I, 13, p.1285-14; 1313

758-759 A.D.

From the Chronographia of Theophanes the Confessor "That year Constantine plundered the Sclavinii throughout Macedonia and subjugated the rest." Theoph., I, p.430, 21-22.

From the Chronographia Tripertita by Anastasius Bibliothecarius: "In the eighteenth year of his reign, Constantine enslaved the Sclavinii of Macedonia and he subjugated the rest." A. B., p.282, 20-21.

8th Century

From Strabonos Epithomatus: "And now, in that way almost all of Epirus, Hellada, the Peloponnese and Macedonia have also been settled by the Skiti-Slavs." C. Muller, Geographi graeci minores, Paris 1882, p.574.

821-823 A.D.

From the letter of Michael II to the honorable Ludwig: "Thomas...having gathered our barges and dromon, had the opportunity to arrive in (some) parts of Thrace and Macedonia." Mansi, Michaelis Belbi et Theophilii....Florentinae, 1759

904

From On the Capture of Salonika by John Cametinae: "...I introduce you to the same, the great and the first city of the Macedonians..." J.K. Begunov, Kozma Prezviter v slavjanskih literaturah, Sofia 1976, p. 297

First half of 10th C.

From On the Themes by Constantine Porphyrogenitus: "... So from a kingdom Macedonia turned into a province and now it has reached the position of a theme and strategy." C. Porfirogenito, De thematibus, Citta del Vaticano, 1952.

986

From the History of Leo the Deacon: "...since they robbed the region of the Macedonians mercilessly, destroying all adults.". Leonis Diaconi Historiae, Paris 1864, p. 311.

1041

From the Annals of Bari: "...he had already written to Sicily from where the unfortunate Macedonians, Paulicians and Calbrians arrived." G.H. Pertz, Annales Barenses, Monumenta Germaniae historica, Scriptores V, p.53.

1064

From the Chronicle of John Zonaras: "The Uzians...invaded Macedonia and plundered it, and reached Hellada". Ioannis Zonorae Epitomae historiarum, Vol. VIII, Ed. Th. Buttner-Wobst, Bonnae 1897, p.678.

1072-1073

From the History of Necephorus Vryenius: "...for the Scythians were carrying out sudden attacks in Thrace and Macedonia." Nicephori Bryenii commentarii, Ed. A. Meicke, Bonnae 1836, p.100, 102.

1083-1085

From De expeditione Yerosolymitana by Radulfo Cadonis: "...Beomund Guiscard sailed across the Adriatic and occupied Macedonia." Tancredi in expeditione Yerosolymitana ....Paris, 1854, p.499.

c. 1106

From the letter of Theophylactes of Ohrid to Gregorius Camaterus: "...do not retain such a man in the narrow regions of our Macedonia...". Theophylacti, col. 496, B-C.

Beginning of 12th Century

From the Byzantine satire Timarion: "The day of Saint Demetrius in (Salonika) is as great a festival as the Panathinei in Athens or Panionii in Miletus; it is a grand Macedonian celebration in which not only the Macedonian people gather, but people of all sorts and from all directions: Greeks from different regions of Hellada, the Mizian tribes...". Vizantiiski Vremenik, Moscow VI 1953, p. 367.

1185

"Woe, woe, the city of Salonika is captured, I say, the metropolis of the Macedonians." Ephraimi Chronologici caesares; Ed. J.P. Migne - PG 143 , Paris 1891, p.198.

Beginning of 13th C.

From the synod records of the Ohrid Archibishopric: "Ioannis Ierakar by birth Macedonian". J. Pitra, Analacta sacra et classica specilegio Solesmensi parta, t. VI Juris ecclesiastici graecorum selecta paralipomena. Parissis et Romae 1891, col. 315.

1246

Ser was one a large city, but the Bulgarian Ivan had demolished when besieging it and other Macedonian cities. Georgii Acropolitae Opera, Recensuit A. Haisenberg vol. I, Lipsiae 1903, p.74-75, 77

1282-1321

...that king's alliance is certain and unanswering, just as long as he can settle near to Macedonia. While he was spending his time on these (matters), the protostrator Theodore Sinadinus, once freed from the West, arrived in Byzantium. He governed Prilep, the neighbouring regions and the lower Macedonian towns. Ioan Cantacuzeni Historiarum libri IV, Ed. J.P.Migne - PG Paris 1866, p.94

1305

At the battle of Apros in 1305 there were five syntaxeis, differentiated by ethnicity: the Alans and Tourkopouloi in the van, followed by the Macedonians, the Anatolians, the Vlach infantry and the Thelematarioi. The Late Byzantine Army. Mark C. Bartusis 1992. p.256

1326

...I beleive you know that Strimon...is the largest of all those that biscet Thrace and Macedonia... Nicephore Gregoras, Correspondence. Paris 1927, p.30-50.

Middle 14th C.

...Stefan became king of the Tribals. After he had set off from the region of the Ionian Sea, he razed Epidamnus to the ground, went into Macedonia and made Skopje the capital... The king left the city of Skopje, taking with him men experienced in battle and a strong army and subordinated to his rule the places in the vicinity of Kastoria. Then having moved camp, he subjugated all of Macedonia, except for Terma... Laonici Chalcocondiae Historiarum. Ed. J. P. Migne - PG t.CLIX (Paris, 1866) col. 36, B-37, C.

1349

(Code of) the honorable and Christ-loving Macedonian Tsar Stefan, Serbian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Dalmation, Arbanasian, Hungarian Wallachian and indipendent ruler of many other regions and lands... Lj. Stojanovic, Stari srpski zapisi i natpisi. Knj. III, Beograd 1905, p. 41 (nbr.4949).

Middle of the 14th C.

A Slav inscription from the church of St. George at Upper Kozjak in which a man called Bratan signs himself as being from Macedonia. Z. Rosolkovska-Nikolovska, Crkvata Sv. Georgi vo Goren Kozjak vo svetlinata na novite ispituvanja - Zbornik "Kiril Solunski", Kn. I, Skopje, MANU 1970, p. 222.

15th C.

I remember the great subordination under which the Turk holds the emperor in Constantinople and all the Greeks, Macedonians and Bulgarians....As I said earlier, there are many Christians who are forced to serve the Turk, such as Greeks, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Albanians, Esclavinians, Rasians and Serbians... Bertrand de la Brocuiere, Putovanje preko mora, Beograd 1950, p.134-135, 140-141.

13th Century - 15th Century

Byzantine historians of the Palaiologan period (13th Century - 15th Century) rarely make any distinction more specific then "Thrace" and "Macedonia". Thus we read of the "Thracians" and "Macedonians", the "Thracian and Macedonian armies", the "army" or "forces from Thrace and Macedonia"… For these historians the border between the two areas was the Nestos River or Kavalla. To the west was Macedonia to the east was Thrace. The Late Byzantine Army. Mark C. Bartusis 1992. p.65

1461-1462

When the enemy forces are battered, no one doubts that the whole of Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Epirus, Thessaly, Greece or Attica and the Peloponnese will return to the faithful....Inspired by this example the Thessalians, the Greeks, the Poloponnesians, the Epirans and the Macedonians will all rebel and will win ... Jovan Radonic, Gjurac Kastriot Skenderbeg i Arbanija u XV veku - Spomenik XCV (1942), p. 128-129.

August 8th, 1470.

The Sultan stopped and spent the night ...in afield that represented the Macedonian border...The River Vardar is nearby, which flows through Macedonia...of which some are Greeks, others Macedonians, Wallachs and even Italians, as well as other nations....Greeks and Macedonians live there... Gio Mario degli Angiolelo, A. Matkovski i P. Angelkova, Nekolku kratki patopisi za Makedonija, Glasnik na INI, VXI/1 (1972), p. 246-247.

[dias/zefs]

Bulgarian,Bulgarian,Bulgarian.......lThe country by the sea which is now called Macedonia... Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his forefathers, who were originally Temenidae from Argos"
(Thucydides 99,3 (Loeb, C F Smith)


"But Alexander (I), proving himself to be an Argive, was judged to be a Greek;
so he contended in the furlong race and ran a dead heat for first place."
(Herod. V, 22, 2)


"The Macedonian people and their kings were of Greek stock, as their traditions and the scanty remains of their language combine to testify."
` {John Bagnell Bury, "A History of Greece to the Death of Alexander the Great", 2nd ed.(1913)

"Clearly, the language of the ancient Macedonians was Greek"
{Prof. John C. Roumans Professor Emeritus of Classics Wisconsin University}

"There is no doubt, that Macedonians were Greeks."
(Robin Lane Fox "Historian-Author" In Interview with newspaper TO BHMA)

"Bulgarian historians say FYROMians are of Bulgarian origin and their language developed from a Bulgarian dialect," which Skopje denies. But Sofia was also the first country to recognize FYROM's independence from the former Yugoslavia in 1991 and now favours its joining the EU. (August 2006 AFP)

"Every FYROMIAN national who does not claim Albanian or Serbian origin has the right to declare a Bulgarian origin." This is an individual act in accordance with the historical reality of our common ethnic origin,”
According to: Stefan Nikolov of the Agency for Bulgarians Abroad. (August 2006 AFP)

We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe,
February 26, 1992, p. 35. )

"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century (AD)."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)

[Thorn]

Now that's a propaganda...No ancient historian in none of their books ever wrote that...

That guy Lane Fox what he said...You come with that as a fact? :D Silly thing to do...You can say that also, but do you can prove that?:thumbdown

I believe that Kiro Gligorov said that for The Toronto star in 1992 but, Kiro Gligorov is a POLITICIAN, NOT A HISTORIAN, he had and has NO right to judge who is who and what is what...

Just like Isocrates said that "Macedonians are part od the Hellenic people", that is the same thing, that's only with an political background...Non of that is true what you say...but it was a good laught doh;) :P

[tsunami]

Fyromian, your fallacies are not enough to make any points.

This is a forum, not a chat room, where every post dissapears, that makes people like you incapable of promoting their fallacious arguments.


You came in here and asked some questions, your questions were ansewered properly, now its time you fulffill your "discussion", and answer the questions as well.

[WisdomSeeker]

I believe that Kiro Gligorov said that for The Toronto star in 1992 but, Kiro Gligorov is a POLITICIAN, NOT A HISTORIAN, he had and has NO right to judge who is who and what is what...

Just like Isocrates said that "Macedonians are part od the Hellenic people", that is the same thing, that's only with an political background...Non of that is true what you say...but it was a good laught doh

Exactly!

So if Kiro Gligorov is a politician,Demosthenes and Isokrates were too..

There goes this argument,then:D



Stay on topic and dont drift the dicussion elsewhere.

This topic is about Aλεξανδρος ΙΙΙ ο Μακεδων.

I bet you can read his name in his own language,can you?;)

Now,be a good boy and stay on topic.

[pitsirikos]

From the "Miracles of St. Demetrius of Salonika, I ": "...For if one was to imagine them in a heap, not only the Macedonians gathered in Salonika... Certainly he who inspired the Macedonians with courage..." Mirac. I, 13, p.1285-14; 1313

Fyromian propagandists arent you getting tired everytime of being the laughing stock of forums with the falsification of history and the endless copy/pastes from your propagandistic sites???

Nice copy/paste from fyromian propaganda site link (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/Documents.html)

Geez you make it clear you havent even spend a min. in your life to read what you quote. It would save you from the further humiliation!! :whistling

Just a few points in order everybody to understand the level of distortion these fyromian propagandists are commiting.

The fyromian site writes:


986
From the History of Leo the Deacon:
"...since they robbed the region of the Macedonians mercilessly, destroying all adults.."
Leonis Diaconi Historiae, Paris 1864, p. 311.


But certainly fyromians avoided to put the `complete' text because it would reveal that the references spoke clearly about people from regions and *not* non-existant nationalities as the fyromians love to dream. :whistling

"...and emperor Basileios II was eager to confront the Moesians... for they were storming the Roman country-side, and looted the properties of the Macedonians, destroying/killing all adults. ...So he advanced to Sardiki... and the troops set a camp... They were casual and lazy... but the Moesians setting a trap..."
<Leon Diakonos 10.8; or passage 171>


The fyromian site writes:

From the "Miracles of St. Demetrius of Salonika, I ": "...For if one was to imagine them in a heap, not only the Macedonians gathered in Salonika... Certainly he who inspired the Macedonians with courage..." Mirac. I, 13, p.1285-14; 1313

which is again taking out of context.

My brainwashed fyromian friends the complete text is clear in the *distinction* between the "savages" as the text says "sklaveni/avars" and on the other hand of the greek defenders being them Macedonians, Thessalians and Achaians.

[I]"...the leader of the Avars... regarding the metropolis of the
Thessalonians as the richest of all cities in the direction
of Thrace and of all Illyricum,... mustered all who shared
the faith and savage race of the Sklaveni... and along with
other barbarians... ordered the expedition against the
heavenly-guarded city of Thessaloniki... <13.109>
...and the barbarians arrived... and the number of besiegers
was far greater not only of all the Macedonians but also of
the Thessalians and Achaians (were one to gather them all as
a heap in Thessaloniki)... <13.116>
Yet, the few defenders, with the help of God, came out of the
city-gate... <14.135>
But... who could carry such a level of devastation? Clearly
the one who instilled this bravery into the Macedonians, for
nothing can resist the Divine... <14.136>
Afterwards the citizens dispatched the cavalry that confirmed
the departure of the terrified enemies who continued to flee
during the night to increase their distance, with no concern
for their items, animals and slaves... And I am told that...
the barbarians blinded by a light... had seen a vision of our
most glorious... St.Dimitrios leading the troops... " <14.148>

Elsewhere these funny propagandists from fyrom write

904

From On the Capture of Salonika by John Cametinae: "...I introduce you to the same, the great and the first city of the Macedonians..." J.K. Begunov, Kozma Prezviter v slavjanskih literaturah, Sofia 1976, p. 297


Actually it is called "On the capture of Salonika" by Ioannis Caminiatis as the author himself writes his name, but obviously since he says also he is a macedonian himself, our fyromian propagandists decided to change his original name to sth that didnt sounded as much greek. :worthy:

The most laughable is that the author Caminiatis in the reference above speaks about Thessalonika which of course our funny fyromian friends avoided to add since their dreams about "Solun" would be shattered.

The fyromian site writes:


From the Annals of Bari: "...he had already written to Sicily from where the unfortunate Macedonians, Paulicians and Calbrians arrived." G.H. Pertz, Annales Barenses, Monumenta Germaniae historica, Scriptores V, p.53.

Yet the propagandists forget to write from the same book that they are unrelated to Macedonians.

"...the districts are of Thrace, Macedonia, Thessaloniki and the neighboring Sklavenies."

<Monumenta Germaniae Historica, Legum Sectio III, Concilia 2.2, p.476, lines 10-11.>

Since fyromians love to quote lines from Chrestomathia, i am surprised none of them ever posted the most significant

"Many [old Balkan] nations have eclipsed... Today
not even the name of the Macedonians or the
Thracians exists."
<Chrestomathia VII.37>


The names "macedonians" and "thracians" remained in Byzantine era only as regional and not ethnic as we learn from Chrestomathia.


I hope the readers had as much fun as i did with the exposed fyromian propaganda. :common051

[dimitris]

Alexander's Gulf outpost uncovered


Last Updated: Tuesday, 7 August 2007, 09:58 GMT 10:58 UK

By Neil Arun

BBC News

Alexander the Great's awe-inspiring conquest of Asia is drawing archaeologists to a desert island off the shores of Iraq.

Greek government experts are going to Failaka - a Gulf outpost of Alexander's army, now governed by Kuwait.

The island's bullet-holed buildings tell of a conflict still fresh in people's memories - Saddam Hussein's brief occupation of Kuwait in the early 1990s.

Beneath the sun-baked sands of Failaka, archaeologists hope to unearth the secrets of an earlier conquest - a settlement established by Alexander's general, Nearchus, in the 4th Century BC.


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44038000/jpg/_44038386_ruins203b.jpg
The Greek and Kuwaiti governments are co-operating at the site


The excavations will focus on the ruins of an ancient citadel and cemetery, the general secretary of the Greek culture ministry, Christos Zahopoulos, told the BBC News website.

Earlier work by French archaeologists has uncovered the remnants of a temple to Artemis, the Greek goddess of hunting, as well as several Greek coins and idols.


'The first globalisation'

According to Michael Wood, the author of a book on Alexander, the period after the conqueror's death saw Hellenistic culture take root across a broad swathe of land, from India to Egypt.

He cites the example of Uruk, a site near Basra in southern Iraq, where inscriptions have been found bearing the names of the local ruling class.


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44044000/gif/_44044194_kuwait_failaka_0807.gif


The names, Wood says, are a hybrid of ancient Babylonian and Greek titles - and they date to several hundred years after Alexander's death.

Alexander's conquest of Asia also accelerated commerce in his colonies, giving rise to what Wood describes as "the first globalisation".

Failaka's position, at the point where the Tigris and Euphrates pour into the Gulf, means it would have been ideally placed to exploit this economic boom.


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44038000/jpg/_44038398_artefacts203b.jpg
Ruins from Failaka reveal the influence of Hellenistic artists


Mr Wood says the Greek team's findings may reveal more of how the ancient civilisations of the Gulf thrived on trade with their contemporaries in Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley.

The Greek archaeologists will begin their excavations in November, Greece's culture ministry says.

Much of the work will be centred around the site of the ancient town of Icarea.

According to Mr Zahopoulos, the team will also carry out restoration on artefacts and ruins that have already been unearthed.


Civilian flight

Alexander was born in 356BC to the king of Macedon, in northern Greece.

By his early thirties, he had conquered much of the ancient world, from Egypt to India.

He died at the age of 33 of a high fever in Babylon, in what is now Iraq.

Failaka's name is thought to descend from the Greek word for outpost - "fylakio".

Before the Greeks arrived, the island had been inhabited by the Bronze Age Dilmun civilisation.

By the time Saddam Hussein's troops invaded in 1990, the island had become the longest continually-inhabited site in Kuwait.

Most of the civilian population fled for the mainland during the Iraqi occupation. Few have returned.

source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6930285.stm)

[afghan sufi]

he came to afghanistan and got a arrow in his foot for his troubles but. non the less the man was a marvoul of a military tactition

[WisdomSeeker]

i wonder whether they have found any inscriptions and in what language they are:whistling;)

[Thorn]

Welcome back WS :victory:

[kassandros]

i wonder why "macedonians" archeologists don't go and the greek ministry of culture has already sent some experts....maybe they avoid the shock of the iscriptions and the ruins of greek life style mixed with oriental infuences...

[Thorn]

i wonder why "macedonians" archeologists don't go and the greek ministry of culture has already sent some experts....maybe they avoid the shock of the iscriptions and the ruins of greek life style mixed with oriental infuences...
Ilija Chashule is living 20 years there...

[kassandros]

if he is a serious archeologis and scientist,i would like to know what he found there...macedonian geroglyphics maybe?i am sure he must have made some interesting discoveries..

[Thorn]

if he is a serious archeologis and scientist,i would like to know what he found there...macedonian geroglyphics maybe?i am sure he must have made some interesting discoveries..

Yet there are no inscriptions over there, just the language...Burushaski...

Read post no.1 (http://www.balkanium.com/forum/showpost.php?p=40973&postcount=103)

Read post no.2 (http://www.balkanium.com/forum/showpost.php?p=40974&postcount=104)


http://www.mactel.com.au/history.php?cat=alexander

http://youtube.com/watch?v=l_jaw3QjKzY

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Dwwc6MdYQsU

http://youtube.com/watch?v=chZMeG2WWhA

http://youtube.com/watch?v=j6JIdvFpAGI

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=447589

Whenever you ask them if they are related to Greece, they say: "We are not related to Greece" :)

[Darien]

Interesting, Burushaski is the language spoken by the tribes claiming to be left from Alexander's armies. These are the Hunza people I tried to open a thread about.
I posted there that some Albanian historians are trying to see to which language this dialect resembles......BUT you know what?


I'm sure as Hell that it doesn't resemble FYROMIAN:whistling

[Thorn]

Pitty for you than...I will be sorry to say that you have "limits"...if you know what I mean...And, on what basis you are using that term??? (you know well what term...)

[Balozi]

I posted there that some Albanian historians are trying to see to which language this dialect resembles......
im sure it will be albanian in the end :D

[Alalzia]

I bet the language is a hindi based dialect that resembles latin, greek , sanscritic, celtic, basque , slavic , baltic and the rest of the languages in the same family. :common051

[WisdomSeeker]

Welcome back WS :victory:


Im still on vacations:D

[Bato]

Some qoutes on Alexander:

"Alexander expressed his admiration of Greek culture by encouraging closer ties with Greece. The Great lyric poet Pindar of Thebes composed poems praising Alexander, and he was awarded the title "Filelini", or "Friend of the Greeks". Such an award, incidentally, would acknowledge that Alexander the Macedonian was not a Greek

Herodotus tells us that Alexander once went to Olympus to contend in the Pan-Hellenic contests. Knowing that he was from Macedonia, the Greeks wished to exclude him from the games, saying that only Greeks were allowed to contend, and not barbarians."

Edwin E. Jacques
The Albanians: An Ethnic History from Prehistoric Times to the Present

[Bato]

"Furthermore.... Thucydides ... classed the Thesproti, the Molossi and other Epirotic groups were not really of Greek ethnicity, then Alexander's mother, a Molossian, was probably not of Greek ancestry. Thus neither Alexander's mother nor his father was Greek".

John Shea
Macedonia and Greece: The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation
ISBN 0786402288

[Bato]

"... Greek culture and history had a Pelasgian, and therefore an "Albanian" origin".

"Let it be known - announced Kristo Daco - that Philip and his son Alexander the Great as well as all the Macedonians were not Greeks, but the forefathers of the ALBANIANS"

"Çerkezi, similarly, could refer confidently in passing to 'Alexander the Great, whose Illyrian-Albanian origin cannot be disputed'"

"The greatest expansion of Hellenic civilization and rule thus occurred thanks to an 'Albanian', not a Hellene"

"A similar but more subtle insinuation of an 'Albanian' element into Greek civilization was prompted by Herodotus' comment that the Greeks had learned the names of many of their gods from the Pelasgians. Taking up this hint, Malte-Burn and Crispi had devised Albanian origins for various ancient Greek names: Thetis..."


C. Hurst & Co. Publishers
Albanian Identities: Myth and History
ISBN 1850655723

[Bato]

"Alexander the Great was born at Pella in Macedonia, but the proximity of this to the modern Albania, and the fact of his mother Olympias having belonged to the royal house of Epirus, are a sufficient justification for his being regarded poetically as having "risen" in Albania".

George Gordon N. Byron
Childe Harold
Published 1885

[Bato]

"Alexander was connected with Albania through his mother Olympias, who was an Epirotic princess: ..."

"The historical heroes of Albania are Alexander the Great, Pyrrhus, and Scanderbeg".

Henry Fanshawe Tozer
Researches in the Highlands of Turkey: Including Visits to Mounts Ida, Athos, Olympus, and Pelion, to the Mirdite Albanians and Other Remote Tribes
ISBN 0766188906

[Bato]

"... and Olympias, his mother, a princes of Epirus (South Albania); therevfore, Alexander was clearly and Albanian".

Mary Edith Durham
The Burden of the Balkans
1905 Nelson

[Bato]

"Alexander the Great, for example, was pure Albanian of his Mother's side (Olympias - Epirot princess) and had to conquer Greece several times before the Greeks accepted him as their own".

Lou Giaffo
Albania: Eye of the Balkan Vortex
ISBN 0738802603

[Bato]

"The boy's (Alexander the Great) mother was Olympias, an Albanian princess whose wild young beauty Philip had fallen in love with as he saw her dancing in the religious rites of her own..."

Leslie White Hopkinson
Greek Leaders
Houghton Mifflin company (1918)

[Bato]

"The Albanians have an heroic but unheralded history. They have given to the world Alexander the Great, and Crispi the Prime Minister of Italy. Both these men are of direct Albanian origin".

George H Blakeslee and G Stanley Hall
The Journal of Race Development

[Bato]

The Reign of Philip II:

"Philip II was born about 382 BC, the last son of Amyntas III and his Illyrian wife Eurydice. Little is known of his early life".

Sarah B. Pomeroy
Ancient Greece
ISBN 0195097424

[Bato]

"In the land of Illyria (present-day Albania), home of Philip's first wife, Eurydice, lived a pirate leader named Teuta, wife of King Agron of Illyria".

David E. Jones
Women Warriors: A History
ISBN 1574882066

[Bato]

"... mightiest general of antiquity, was born in July, BC, of the marriage between Philip II of Macedon and his third wife, the Albanian princess Olympias."

Norman F. Cantor
Alexander the Great: Journey to the End of the Earth
2005

[Balozi]

who gives a shit about alexander the "great" (he was roughly 1.65 or so). he killed people all his life and had an arrogance from here to china. nothing to be proud about

[Torontezos]

Some qoutes on Alexander:

"Alexander expressed his admiration of Greek culture by encouraging closer ties with Greece. The Great lyric poet Pindar of Thebes composed poems praising Alexander, and he was awarded the title "Filelini", or "Friend of the Greeks". Such an award, incidentally, would acknowledge that Alexander the Macedonian was not a Greek

Herodotus tells us that Alexander once went to Olympus to contend in the Pan-Hellenic contests. Knowing that he was from Macedonia, the Greeks wished to exclude him from the games, saying that only Greeks were allowed to contend, and not barbarians."

Edwin E. Jacques
The Albanians: An Ethnic History from Prehistoric Times to the Present



Your quotes are taken out of context my friend.
If we look at the time of this "Philhellene" label it is because the Kingdom of Macedon was under Persian rule.
Therefore it was considered Persian instead of anything else, especially since many of the Macedonian royal family were forced to marry into Persian aristocracy. Since Alexander I was hostile to his Persian rulers, he was labelled as a "Philhellene" only in Pindarus' poetry.

Your second quote is closely related to what I've written above. Alexander I had to prove his nationality as Greek based on his lineage because the kingdom of Macedon at the time was a vassal state of Persia, and because of the forced inter-marriages mentioned above. Please also note that Herodotus never labelled Alexander I as "Philhellene" and also that Alexander I traced his family tree successfuly to the judges at Olympia and was allowed to compete in the Olympics.

[Bato]

Your quotes are taken out of context my friend.
.

Says the greek who is threatened that Alexander might not be greek....

The qoutes are not mine, but of specific authors. If you have a problem with them, take it up with the authors themselves.

[Torontezos]

Threatened? LMAO
Yes, yes of course!
Everyone on this planet should fear the awesome power of slective quotes from Bato... I cringe in petrifying terror, what shall we ever do? :gy:

[Bato]

Threatened? LMAO
Yes, yes of course!
Everyone on this planet should fear the awesome power of slective quotes from Bato... I cringe in petrifying terror, what shall we ever do? :gy:

Bla bla bla is always a good strategy when you have nothing to say right?

[Torontezos]

In case you paid attentiong (which I doubt) my reply was strictly to the quote you were supporting by Edwin Jacques.
Instead of counter-arguing against what I said, you instead deflect to tell me to speak with the authors.
Now tell me, who's the one who has nothing to say?

[Bato]

In case you paid attentiong (which I doubt) my reply was strictly to the quote you were supporting by Edwin Jacques.
Instead of counter-arguing against what I said, you instead deflect to tell me to speak with the authors.
Now tell me, who's the one who has nothing to say?


The qoute is clear and what you said is your interpretation of the qoute, just like all greeks have their bullshit interpretation of any qoute that doesn't suit their view.

So the one who has nothing to say is you.

[Torontezos]

Wow, you have some anger issues eh?

If you studied the topic further you would realize that my reply accurately describes the geo-political situation of the kingdom of Macedon at the time of Alexander I. Unfortunately you are too busy hating everything Hellenic, seems like my quest for an intellegent debate is still fruitless on here.

[Bato]

Wow, you have some anger issues eh?

If you studied the topic further you would realize that my reply accurately describes the geo-political situation of the kingdom of Macedon at the time of Alexander I. Unfortunately you are too busy hating everything Hellenic, seems like my quest for an intellegent debate is still fruitless on here.

Oh wow, is patronising a treat that all greeks have? No anger issues at all.

Read the qoutes once more, and not only the first one. They are very clear about what they say. If you have any disagreements with the authors, take it up with them. Personally I would agree with professionals historians, rather than the opinions of the forum member of balkanium Torentezos. You quest is that of a person who is looking at views that affirm his views.

[Torontezos]

We've gone off topic and I'm not sure what you're disputing here.
Hammond, John Cole, William Smith and ALMOST EVERY HISTORIAN agrees that Macedon was a Persian ruled kingdom when Alexander I was in power.
Also both, Herodotus and the Roman Marcus Junianis Justini both agree that Alexander I successfully proved his lineage to the Olympic judges.

[Bato]

We've gone off topic and I'm not sure what you're disputing here.
Hammond, John Cole, William Smith and ALMOST EVERY HISTORIAN agrees that Macedon was a Persian ruled kingdom when Alexander I was in power.
Also both, Herodotus and the Roman Marcus Junianis Justini both agree that Alexander I successfully proved his lineage to the Olympic judges.


Phillip was a Persian king?

p.s. Hammond and others like Hammond who receive medals from the Greek state are completely unreliable.

[Torontezos]

Phillip was a Persian king?

p.s. Hammond and others like Hammond who receive medals from the Greek state are completely unreliable.


:signs053:
Do you know your Macedonian lineage?
What's Philip have to do with anything???
are you confusing Alexander I with Alexander III (the Great)?

P.S. You completely disregard Hammond and "others like him" I suppose your personal credentials are better than an internationally recognized NON-GREEK historian? Open your mind a little, you just blatantly said all historians who agree with the Greeks are completely unreliable! A little generalist don't you think?

[Bato]

:signs053:
Do you know your Macedonian lineage?
What's Philip have to do with anything???
are you confusing Alexander I with Alexander III (the Great)?

P.S. You completely disregard Hammond and "others like him" I suppose your personal credentials are better than an internationally recognized NON-GREEK historian? Open your mind a little, you just blatantly said all historians who agree with the Greeks are completely unreliable! A little generalist don't you think?

We are talking about Alexander the Great here, you do know that? Phillip was his father and king of Macedonia.

That internationally non greek historian, fought for Greece in WWII, lived in Greece for a long period of time, and received a medal from the Greek government. How unbiased can he be? You have to open your mind a little...

[Balozi]

bato mate, your generalisations are getting tiresome and annoying to some people. you should really stop generalising and have a more open minded attitude

[WisdomSeeker]

Some qoutes on Alexander:


Edwin E. Jacques
The Albanians: An Ethnic History from Prehistoric Times to the Present

It is incredible that one brings forth a quote over an alleged historical claim from Edwin Jacques,a... catholic missionary in Albania:doh:and certainly not a historian. I guess our orthodox priests are entitled to have DR in history too:D


The Reverend Edwin Everett Jacques had attended the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, graduated from Gordon College and Divinity School, and was awarded a Master of Arts Degree from Boston University. He also received an Honorary Doctor of Divinity Degree from Denver Theological Seminary. A former Missionary to Albania and Italy, he pastored churches in East Concord, Groton, and Fitchburg, Massachusetts. Prior to his retirement, he served the Conservative Baptist Foreign Mission Society for nearly 20 years, and, as its foreign secretary, travelled extensively in Europe and Asia. He is survived by his wife of 66 years, Dorothy, two sons, Edwin M. Jacques of Milton, Delaware, and Stanton E. Jacques of Concord, Massachusetts, a daughter Gloria Seidenberg of Epsom, New Hampshire, 13 grandchildren, and 13 great grandchildren.


C. Hurst & Co. Publishers
Albanian Identities: Myth and History
ISBN 1850655723

Its at least amusing albanians nationalists to quote...inside the books of Fischer the chapter of "the myths of Albanian nationality" where actually Fischer writes about the illusions of albanian nationalism in the first half of 20th century:doh:


George Gordon N. Byron
Childe Harold
Published 1885

Published in 1885? You quote a book published in 1885?:roll: The discovery of Vergina Tombs,the Molossian Decrees in greek,the pella katadesmos,the derveni papirus mean nothing then? Of course,you are free to believe that earth is flat,if you read the mediaval books on the decrees of the church :P


Henry Fanshawe Tozer
Researches in the Highlands of Turkey: Including Visits to Mounts Ida, Athos, Olympus, and Pelion, to the Mirdite Albanians and Other Remote Tribes
ISBN 0766188906

Again the Albanian nationalists bring as somewhat "evidence" of their allegations, a geographer/traveller NOT an historian.Tozer was a geographer/traveller. Google for him.


Mary Edith Durham
The Burden of the Balkans
1905 Nelson

Mary Edith Durham isnt related with History but she is a traveller. Her books are good only for coffee table discussions but not history. Still no credible historical source that points out an 'Albanian' origin of Alexander.


Lou Giaffo
Albania: Eye of the Balkan Vortex
ISBN 0738802603

Lou Giaffo, an Albanian himself isnt considered anything related to "unbiased neutral source" as also his desperate attempts show, therefore his input is totally worthless.Giaffo's confession that "he never pretended to be an established historian on those times" says it all.


Leslie White Hopkinson
Greek leaders
Houghton Mifflin company (1918)

Its at least Ironic for Albanians to bring as "evidence" this book where its obvious even by its title Alexander is considered a Greek Leader. Are you guys crazy or something claiming Alexander as an Albanian and quoting a book under a title ''Greek Leaders''? You can try harder ,i know.


George H Blakeslee and G Stanley Hall
The Journal of Race Development

For starers Blakeslee wasnt related with ancient history as he taught modern and eugenics at war and his personal opinion has been refuted by world's authorities in ancient Macedonian history who noone shares his beliefs. No ''unbiased historic source'' here as well.


Sarah B. Pomeroy
Ancient Greece
ISBN 0195097424

The selected quote points out a blanket claim about Eurydice being "Illyrian" while there is even today an ongoing discussion about the origins of Eurydice. The authority in ancient Epirote and Macedonian history NGL Hammond dismisses the "Illyrian" origin of Eurydice as ficticious. Again no evidence of the so-called Illyrian origin of Alexander. After all, Alexander the Great's mother was Olympias and not Eurydice,that small ''detail''certainly slipped her,didnt it?:doh:


David E. Jones
Women Warriors: A History
ISBN 1574882066

Firstly we should note David E. Jones is a cultural anthropologist and not a historian as himself says,therefore he has nothing to do with history.

Anyway the quote Albanians used "In the land of Illyria (present-day Albania), home of Philip's first wife Eurydice" doesnt reveal anywhere any connection between Alexander and Albanians. Its well-known except Albanians obviously Alexander's mother was Olympias, not Eurydice. (see above response).

The fact that David E. Jones lacks historical knowledge is shown in the paragraph prior to the selected quote where he stats :

"The wife of Alexander the Great, queen Cratisepolis of Sicyon, fought beside her husband.."

Cratisepolis was actually wife of Alexander, son of Polysperchon, not Alexander the great.:doh:


Norman F. Cantor
Alexander the Great: Journey to the End of the Earth
2005

And finally,a serious scholar brought up by the albanian nationalist. For starters,The whole book links Alexander the III with hellenic culture,as for the quote Olympias was a member of the royal house of Molossoi,a greek ruling house (see the appropriate thread) and certainly not albanian :common051

Conclusion: From the aforementioned quotes you have presented only one is historian,the rest are just wanna be's

I thought i have told you to be more careful from where you take your sources from,havent i?;)

[Torontezos]

We are talking about Alexander the Great here, you do know that? Phillip was his father and king of Macedonia.



Your quote from E. Jacques that I have been arguing on is about Alexander I who ruled Macedon around 490BC, son of Amyntas who is an ancestor of Alexander III (the Great).

[Bato]

It is incredible that one brings forth a quote over an alleged historical claim from Edwin Jacques,a... catholic missionary in Albaniaand certainly not a historian. I guess our orthodox priests are entitled to have DR in history too

I expected this. That catholic missionary you speak of has cited every claim in his book. For a sample look at the history section, where I have posted several parts from his book. Don't jump to conclusions so fast "Wisdom"seeker.






Its at least amusing albanians nationalists to quote...inside the books of Fischer the chapter of "the myths of Albanian nationality" where actually Fischer writes about the illusions of albanian nationalism in the first half of 20th century

It's very amusing you generalise about the book and chapter and don't look at the actual qoute and what it says.:roll:


Published in 1885? You quote a book published in 1885?:roll: The discovery of Vergina Tombs,the Molossian Decrees in greek,the pella katadesmos,the derveni papirus mean nothing then? Of course,you are free to believe that earth is flat,if you read the mediaval books on the decrees of the church :P

According to your flawed logic then, anything the ancient historians said is invalid because it is very old? O.o


Again the Albanian nationalists bring as somewhat "evidence" of their allegations, a geographer/traveller NOT an historian.Tozer was a geographer/traveller. Google for him.

Are historians the only ones qualified to write on history? Have you read their books? Again, people of this stature don't just write things out of their ass, they cite every claim they make.



Mary Edith Durham isnt related with History but she is a traveller. Her books are good only for coffee table discussions but not history. Still no credible historical source that points out an 'Albanian' origin of Alexander.

Again, all her claims are cited to actual HISTORIANS.




Lou Giaffo, an Albanian himself isnt considered anything related to "unbiased neutral source" as also his desperate attempts show, therefore his input is totally worthless.Giaffo's confession that "he never pretended to be an established historian on those times" says it all.

Bla bla bla the same thing again. Read the books, and see that they back up all their claims with references.



Its at least Ironic for Albanians to bring as "evidence" this book where its obvious even by its title Alexander is considered a Greek Leader. Are you guys crazy or something claiming Alexander as an Albanian and quoting a book under a title ''Greek Leaders''? You can try harder ,i know.

Yeah yeah. Read the fn quote. You're getting annoying. He was a leader of the greeks, since there was no greek to lead the greeks. :D



For starers Blakeslee wasnt related with ancient history as he taught modern and eugenics at war and his personal opinion has been refuted by world's authorities in ancient Macedonian history who noone shares his beliefs. No ''unbiased historic source'' here as well.

More excuses. This guy is unbiased, while people like Hammond are biased. :roll:



The selected quote points out a blanket claim about Eurydice being "Illyrian" while there is even today an ongoing discussion about the origins of Eurydice. The authority in ancient Epirote and Macedonian history NGL Hammond dismisses the "Illyrian" origin of Eurydice as ficticious. Again no evidence of the so-called Illyrian origin of Alexander. After all, Alexander the Great's mother was Olympias and not Eurydice,that small ''detail''certainly slipped her,didnt it?:doh:

First I suggest you see an oculist, because she is taking about alexander's grandmother, phillip's mother eurydice which was illyrian, just like olympias was illyrian.

Second: What kind of medal did the greek state give Hammond?



Firstly we should note David E. Jones is a cultural anthropologist and not a historian as himself says,therefore he has nothing to do with history.

People that study past dead cultures have nothing to with history? :trampolin






And finally,a serious scholar brought up by the albanian nationalist. For starters,The whole book links Alexander the III with hellenic culture,as for the quote Olympias was a member of the royal house of Molossoi,a greek ruling house (see the appropriate thread) and certainly not albanian :common051

You said it yourself, alexander was connected to hellenic culture, but was not an ethnic hellene himself. Olympias was Molossian, and molossians were a barbarian epirotic illyrian tribe, having nothing to do with greeks.




Conclusion: From the aforementioned quotes you have presented only one is historian,the rest are just wanna be's

I thought i have told you to be more careful from where you take your sources from,havent i?;)

Conclusion. The qoutes are genuine and correct, from well researched books. You wiggly waggly explanations are more typical bullshit from you.

[WisdomSeeker]

It's very amusing you generalise about the book and chapter and don't look at the actual qoute and what it says.

What is amusing is that you fail to understand the purpose of writting that book,Bato. I will say it again and google for it:


Its at least amusing albanians nationalists to quote...inside the books of Fischer the chapter of "the myths of Albanian nationality" where actually Fischer writes about the illusions of albanian nationalism in the first half of 20th century

I am sure your english is far from imperfect to understand what illusions of albanian nationalism means.


According to your flawed logic then, anything the ancient historians said is invalid because it is very old?

You must be joking. History is closely linked with epigraphy,archaeology,architecture. When that book was written the Royal Tombs of Vergina,the Molossian Decrees and the rest of greek texts in Macedonia had not been discovered yet.IF whatever the ancient writters have written is confirmed by archaeological findings,then their texts are accepted. That is why we dont believe the earth is flat anymore,because we can see it through satellites. Do i have to explain anything here?O.o


Are historians the only ones qualified to write on history?

:doh:

Well,i dont know,you can certainly try learn prehistory from sci-fi authors,like Daeniken or religion from Dan Brown. The rest prefer studying it from serious scholars.


Again, all her claims are cited to actual HISTORIANS.

Edith Durham? You mean the same ones who believed Illyrians were Slavs in 18th-19th century,since she wrote her book in the 1900's? Again,read what i said about archaeological findings above.


Bla bla bla the same thing again. Read the books, and see that they back up all their claims with references

I will post it once more:Lou Giaffo, an Albanian himself isnt considered anything related to "unbiased neutral source" as also his desperate attempts show, therefore his input is totally worthless.Giaffo's confession that "he never pretended to be an established historian at those times'' says it all.


People that study past dead cultures have nothing to with history?

As i can see you can not see the difference between those 2 sciences. Certainly,i can not explain it to you,but we are talking about history here:P

As for the rest,your sources are outdated since more recent archaeological findings were found,coming out from NON HISTORIANS. You have tried hard,was not enouph,try harder:P

[Bato]

What is amusing is that you fail to understand the purpose of writting that book,Bato. I will say it again and google for it:

Have you read the book? If not you should not speak of it...




I am sure your english is far from imperfect to understand what illusions of albanian nationalism means.

What does the quote say?



You must be joking. History is closely linked with epigraphy,archaeology,architecture. When that book was written the Royal Tombs of Vergina,the Molossian Decrees and the rest of greek texts in Macedonia had not been discovered yet.IF whatever the ancient writters have written is confirmed by archaeological findings,then their texts are accepted. That is why we dont believe the earth is flat anymore,because we can see it through satellites. Do i have to explain anything here?O.o

Scandinavian coins were found in Baghdad. Are iraqis scandinavian all of the sudden? Greek was lingua franca at that time, and greeks as well had many colonies, especially in areas like macedonia, epirus and illyria. Those finds do not mean the people of those regions were greek. They just mean they were drawn to greek culture. The ancient writers confirm this as well, with the countless qoutes depicting them as barbarian.

:doh:


Well,i dont know,you can certainly try learn prehistory from sci-fi authors,like Daeniken or religion from Dan Brown. The rest prefer studying it from serious scholars.

You know what I meant. Stop with the bullshit sarcasm.



Edith Durham? You mean the same ones who believed Illyrians were Slavs in 18th-19th century,since she wrote her book in the 1900's? Again,read what i said about archaeological findings above.

Care to qoute this claim of yours?



I will post it once more:Lou Giaffo, an Albanian himself isnt considered anything related to "unbiased neutral source" as also his desperate attempts show, therefore his input is totally worthless.Giaffo's confession that "he never pretended to be an established historian at those times'' says it all.

Sure. whatever...


As i can see you can not see the difference between those 2 sciences. Certainly,i can not explain it to you,but we are talking about history here:P

Are you ****ing kidding me? Dude, stop with pompous bullshit. I see the difference. But if you study dead past cultures, you are doing HISTORICAL work as well.


As for the rest,your sources are outdated since more recent archaeological findings were found,coming out from NON HISTORIANS. You have tried hard,was not enouph,try harder:P

Don't need to try harder. It was more than enough judging from your reaction.

[Balozi]

i haven't read jaques' book but i've heared that it's not a good one. i've also heared that another work from some guy named d'angely which is similar to that of jaques is also not a good work (i haven't read this either)

the fact that these people are barely known in the scientific community should make anyone wonder about their works, even if some of the things they write may be right or well articulated

on the other hand there are countless historians who don't have a clue, they just got a degree in history of some university that teaches the basic stuff i.e. macedonia is greek etc, and there are many historians who advocate on the albanian positions of all these debates

to me the most credible facts are those written by ancient sources, or those very well articulated and cited (from ancient sources again) modern articles

a didactic, flat excerpt claiming the one or the other thing from a supposed historian's book doesn't impress me the slightest, be that hammond, jaques or whoever

on a side note, hammond: the greek war of independence was fought by albanians :D

[Bato]

i haven't read jaques' book but i've heared that it's not a good one. i've also heared that another work from some guy named d'angely which is similar to that of jaques is also not a good work (i haven't read this either)



You have heard wrong. Jacques book is very well researched and cited. D'Angely on the other hand was a historian, and he published his book after 30 years of research.

[WisdomSeeker]

Since you are banned,i will not post anything about your ''historical sources'' you proudly presented among us and ,as i have posted they are hardly '' coming from history unbiased scholars'',if ,first of all they are not written by historians!:P

I am eagerly waiting for your comeback! Take care.

[Bato]

Since you are banned,i will not post anything about your ''historical sources'' you proudly presented among us and ,as i have posted they are hardly '' coming from history unbiased scholars'',if ,first of all they are not written by historians!:P

I am eagerly waiting for your comeback! Take care.


You already posted your bullshit explanations.

[WisdomSeeker]

I have demonstrated that your sources are not coming from historical references/scholars. Now instead of taging them whatever it pleases you,try to find any non albanian historian that promotes the idea of Alexander the III being Illyrian.

[Balozi]

we dont want alexander III he sucks

[WisdomSeeker]

we dont want alexander III he sucks


Ok,how about Leka i Madh then? Was he illyrian?:D:P

[Bato]

I have demonstrated that your sources are not coming from historical references/scholars. Now instead of taging them whatever it pleases you,try to find any non albanian historian that promotes the idea of Alexander the III being Illyrian.

You haven't demonstrated anything. None of the sources above were Albanian historians. But even if I brought an Albanian historian as a source, that doesn't mean that it is less credible just because he/she is Albanian.

[Bato]

Ok,how about Leka i Madh then? Was he illyrian?:D:P

At least 3 parts he was Illyrian.

[Bardhi]

even if Alexander the Great was an illyrian i dont think that he could ever be our national hero since his acts benifited the greeks only... He forged "Coine"(im not sure if i spelled it right but what i meant is the unified greek language) which he used in all of his empire. for this simple fact nomatter what his ethnicity might have been he still remains a greek hero. Napoleon was not french by ethnicity but he was one of the greatest french personalities of all times. so disscussing alexanders ethnic background is a waste of time especially taking into account that ethnic affiliation was not a great factor in those times and Nationalism (especially ethno-nationalism) as we know it today didn't exist at all.

peace to you all

B.

[Balozi]

i think scum like alexander and napoleon are getting more credit than they deserve lol

i've always wondered what the hell did greeks see in him to make him the example of their nation. i think the greatest greek hero is pericles

[Alalzia]

i think scum like alexander and napoleon are getting more credit than they deserve lol

i've always wondered what the hell did greeks see in him to make him the example of their nation. i think the greatest greek hero is pericles

I so totally agree with this comment , but you see Alex and the rest of the scum are the only 150 years of glory for the northern Greeks ( as Minoans are for Cretans , Vyzas for people of Megara etc )

Alex didn't want to be Greek, he lived and died as an Asian ,if you know any other Greek moron that demanded from others to worship him as god go on and tell me.

[Torontezos]

With all due respect Alalzia, if Alexander didn't wish to be Greek, then why did he spread Hellenism everywhere he went?
True, he certainly was no role-model and he admired the exoticness of asian traditions.
I don't think anyone denies the fact that he was a megalomaniac either, but to say he abandoned his nationality is debatable.

[Bato]

With all due respect Alalzia, if Alexander didn't wish to be Greek, then why did he spread Hellenism everywhere he went?
True, he certainly was no role-model and he admired the exoticness of asian traditions.
I don't think anyone denies the fact that he was a megalomaniac either, but to say he abandoned his nationality is debatable.

Spreading hellenism does not make you greek by ethnicity.

[Torontezos]

Spreading hellenism does not make you greek by ethnicity.

:?
Ok, that's not what I was asking, but whatever. If you don't believe he was a Greek then I'll just chalk it up to another point you and I don't see eye to eye on.

[Bato]

:?
Ok, that's not what I was asking, but whatever. If you don't believe he was a Greek then I'll just chalk it up to another point you and I don't see eye to eye on.

What I believe does not matter. What the facts show us, does.

[Gnous]

What I believe does not matter. What the facts show us, does.

Well Alexander was not Greek..?

So he was definetely a wannabe Greek!

I guess he would slice u in small pieces if you called him "Illyrian" or Barbarian.

[Bato]

Well Alexander was not Greek..?

So he was definetely a wannabe Greek!

I guess he would slice u in small pieces if you called him "Illyrian" or Barbarian.

Do you have a time machine, so we can travel back in time and I can call him Illyrian and see if slices me to pieces?

Interestingly enough many greeks did call him barbarian and rose up against him many time, and he endend up ****ing them up so badly, burning their cities and enslaving their people.

[Gnous]

Do you have a time machine, so we can travel back in time and I can call him Illyrian and see if slices me to pieces?

Interestingly enough many greeks did call him barbarian and rose up against him many time, and he endend up ****ing them up so badly, burning their cities and enslaving their people.

So..cant u see what would you suffer too ? :D

[Torontezos]

What I believe does not matter. What the facts show us, does.

Fair enough, I like to go with what the majority of historians believe, which supports the theory that the Macedonian royal family was of mostly Hellenic descent.
If you don't, hey, that's your perogative.


Do you have a time machine, so we can travel back in time and I can call him Illyrian and see if slices me to pieces?

Interestingly enough many greeks did call him barbarian and rose up against him many time, and he endend up ****ing them up so badly, burning their cities and enslaving their people.

Interestingly enough, in numerous occassions Greeks even called their own fellow Greeks "barbarians" when they wanted to insult them deeply.
And last I checked, Alexander only razed Thebes, not every single Greek city state. So the whole "burning their cities" remark is inacurate.

[Bato]

So..cant u see what would you suffer too ? :D

If the greeks truly believed he was greek , they wouldn't have rose up against him so much and called him barbarian.

[Bato]

Fair enough, I like to go with what the majority of historians believe, which supports the theory that the Macedonian royal family was of mostly Hellenic descent.
If you don't, hey, that's your perogative.



Interestingly enough, in numerous occassions Greeks even called their own fellow Greeks "barbarians" when they wanted to insult them deeply.
And last I checked, Alexander only razed Thebes, not every single Greek city state. So the whole "burning their cities" remark is inacurate.


I brought the beliefs of many historians as well, earlier in the thread and I like to believe that he mostly wasn't of hellenic descent.

Sure, only thebes was razed however he had to conquer the other Greek city states and they rose up in rebellion four times against him.

[Torontezos]

I brought the beliefs of many historians as well, earlier in the thread and I like to believe that he mostly wasn't of hellenic descent.

Sure, only thebes was razed however he had to conquer the other Greek city states and they rose up in rebellion four times against him.


As I said, you can believe what you like, the majority of historians still support the Hellenic descent theory.

As to your second point, there is a distinct difference between quelling internal rebellion, and conquering and burning down cities.
Alexander only conqured and burned down Thebes (except for the house of Pindar if I recall correctly), and he did so only out of necessity to prove to the rest of Hellas that the Corinthean League agreement must be adhered.
Anywhere else, he was welcomed (except for Sparta, of which he did not dare attack)

[Bato]

As I said, you can believe what you like, the majority of historians still support the Hellenic descent theory.

As to your second point, there is a distinct difference between quelling internal rebellion, and conquering and burning down cities.
Alexander only conqured and burned down Thebes (except for the house of Pindar if I recall correctly), and he did so only out of necessity to prove to the rest of Hellas that the Corinthean League agreement must be adhered.
Anywhere else, he was welcomed (except for Sparta, of which he did not dare attack)


This majority historians you mention, suspicioulsy are very philhellenic and I don't think they're very credible.

And Alexander was not welcomed everywhere else, he CONQUERED them.

[Torontezos]

This majority historians you mention, suspicioulsy are very philhellenic and I don't think they're very credible.

Ah, well then if you believe the majority of historians out there are not credible, then there is really no basis for a debate as it's more of a denial than anything else.



And Alexander was not welcomed everywhere else, he CONQUERED them.

What other Greek cities had Alexander conquered and burnt down other than Thebes?
You seem rather sure of yourself, so please, show me some proof.

[Bato]

There are reasons. For example, somebody like Hammond who lived in Greece for a while, fought for Greece and received a medal from the Greek state and is considered an expert on ancient history is hardly an unbiased source.

Did all city states besides Thebes, accept him as ruler? Or out of fear of what he did to thebans, they bowed to him?

[Gnous]

There are reasons. For example, somebody like Hammond who lived in Greece for a while, fought for Greece and received a medal from the Greek state and is considered an expert on ancient history is hardly an unbiased source.

Did all city states besides Thebes, accept him as ruler? Or out of fear of what he did to thebans, they bowed to him?

How silly are your arguments??

Did Samians accepted Athens and Pericles as ruler? NO.

Why did Pericles demolished Samos..and Milos when they resisted Athenians?

Wheren't they forced to subdue to the Athenian Hegemony?

[Torontezos]

Ok, let's put the historian argument aside, because there are many who support the Hellenic descent theory that have no links to Greece...

Focusing more on the political situation of Hellas at the time.
Back then each city-state was independent and therefore always competing with their neighbours for influence, resources etc.
After the Peleponisian wars Athens and Sparta were considerably weakened, which is when Philip proposed an unification of Greek lands under his leadership.
Athens, & Thebes scoffed at the idea that a Monarch should lead the more "civilized" and democratically ruled city-states (Another reason for the numerous "barbarian" references against Philip and Macedon in general) so they met in battle @ Chaeronea.

Let's be clear here, the battle of Chaeronea was a battle of conflicting ideals, not nationalities.
The ideals of absolute power within a Monarch (Kingdom of Macedon) versus the ideals of citizen-ruled democracy (Thebes & Sparta).
Philip's victory did not enslave Hellas but merely forced them to recognize him as the military leader of the land, they still enjoyed self-governance and liberty of their citizens.
These were the stipulations of the League of Corinth:


- that the constitutions of the member states would remain unchanged;
- that violence between the member states was no longer permitted;
- that, in case of the overthrow of a government, a congress of representatives, was to meet at Corinth;
- that it would establish the facts and declare war as a joint group;
- that the league's army was to be commanded by Philip;
- that the league's member states would send a number of soldiers to the league's army in proportion to their size.
After Philip's death, Athens and Thebes disputed the leadership of Alexander, and so Alexander marched to Thebes to persuade them, he even gave them a chance to negotiate instead they attacked him outside the wall. An example had to be made as the result of the battle would determine if Athens was to honour the Corinthian treaty.

So as you can see, the only 2 cities that had an issue with Alexander, where the ones who used to be the most powerful and influential before Macedon.
And Alexander only attacked those who had agreed to the League of Corinth and then backed off after his father's death, he did not touch Sparta (who never agreed to the Corinthian League in the first place) and continued to prosper. Why did Alexander not attack them as well?

The texts show a split reaction to Alexander, many Athenian statesmen welcomed him, many did not (you gotta love democracy!) I'm sure that fear was a factor in their ultimate acceptance, but answer this.
If Athens was merely a puppet state that feared Alexander, then why did he send a considerable amount of treasure back from Asia directly to Athens?

Sorry for the long post... I get carried away sometimes LOL

[Bato]

How silly are your arguments??




My arguments, or actually the arugements of legitimate writers are a few pages back if you care to read them.

[Torontezos]

Correction:



The ideals of absolute power within a Monarch (Kingdom of Macedon) versus the ideals of citizen-ruled democracy (Thebes & Sparta).

Should read Macedon vs Thebes & Athens. Sparta simply rejected the notion of unification under a non-Spartan leader, but did not wish to ally themselves with the Athenians either and therefore stayed neutral in the matter.

[GEORGE]

you very ignorant. i would assume a turk would know that under the ottoman empire everyone was required to change religions and their was definitly no peace. The ottomans were great conquerors but did not have peaceful reign over their occupied territories.

[GEORGE]

bato i really think you cannot debate anythhing. you have no basis to create your argument. I agree with Torontezos

[Bato]

bato i really think you cannot debate anythhing. you have no basis to create your argument. I agree with Torontezos

Empty words, are just that...empty words...

[PPPelagian]

Hi my friends,

To start with, I'll bring here a video from youtube.com:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oCV18AfJJU

For my own opinion, this above video represent in excellent way reasons for what Alexander the Great may be consider as Albanian.

Regard
PPPelagian

[Alalzia]

The only problem is that there was NO Albanians back then , the earliest Albanian language inscription dates back to like 14th century AD .... this is like almost 2 millennia after Alex.

Also the rest of the non Greek nations in the area didn't had an alphabet , didn't made empires , didn't built cities , knew nothing about arts and scientists , everything that has any of it inside is Greek and only Greek.

3400 years of written history , even the Chinese started to write later!

When the Greeks rocked the world Albanians didn't even existed. <-- period

PS : nice user name LOL

PS1 : I love when i am doing this :D

[Balozi]

we dont care about alexander but your post alalzia is full of bs. what does one's origin have to do with written language?

and what about the other nations in the area, did they live each in his own hut 5km one from the other? dont be ridiculous

peace

[Alalzia]

dont be ridiculous


And this is where you missed the point :P

[Balozi]

:P

[WisdomSeeker]

Oh great,first post of a user,and what he does? he goes and digs up a thread over 7 months dead. Do i smell a...


http://www.opticstalk.com/uploads/3940/Troll.jpg



who tries to flame bait? Dont feed it pls.

[PPPelagian]

Oh great,first post of a user,and what he does? he goes and digs up a thread over 7 months dead. Do i smell a...

who tries to flame bait? Dont feed it pls.

Sorry, mate! It was not my attidue to insult or offend noone. I've just posted in this thread something that i guess that is related about thread. I didn't knew that this thread is dead since 7 month before.

Regard
PPPelagian