Insulting Turkishness :P

[Alalzia]

Academic sentenced over Ataturk

A Turkish court has handed down a 15-month suspended jail term to an academic found guilty of insulting the state's founder, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

Professor Atilla Yayla said the trial highlighted the limits on free speech and academic debate in Turkey.

His crime was to suggest in academic discussion that the early Turkish republic was not as progressive as portrayed in official books.

His lawyers say they will lodge an immediate appeal.

Professor Yayla told the BBC he was prepared to take his case to the European Court of Human Rights if necessary.

"I want to emphasise again and again that Turkey's most pressing problem is freedom of expression," he said.

The prosecutor had asked the judge to impose a five-year prison sentence.

This trial has become a test of academic freedom in Turkey, which is pursuing a long-term ambition to become an EU member.

Mr Yayla had also warned that, as Turkey moved closer to Europe, Europeans would inevitably question why Turks displayed so many pictures and statues of Ataturk.

The professor was vilified by parts of the Turkish press, suspended from work at an Ankara university, and brought to trial.

Mr Yayla, a well-known liberal, denied the charge of insulting Ataturk and argued that academics must be guaranteed freedom of expression to pursue their research.

'Insulting Turkishness'

The Turkish parliament is preparing to debate amending another law that restricts free speech.

Article 301 on "insulting Turkishness" has been used to prosecute dozens of writers and intellectuals, including Nobel prize winner Orhan Pamuk.

"Many foreign observers concentrate on Article 301, but there are other laws and articles in different laws, which have the potential to restrict freedom of expression, as it is in my case," Mr Yayla told the BBC.

"What is important is that Turkey should evolve into being a country where people are not punished because of their thoughts. And to achieve this we ought to make reforms in the whole legal system and also change the mentality in the judiciary. Otherwise Turkey will go on suffering."

The EU has been pressing for a change to Article 301 for well over a year, but the government has faced stiff opposition from nationalists, both within the ruling party and in the opposition.

But changes to the law which protects Ataturk are not up for discussion.


:tomato:

source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7212452.stm)

[WisdomSeeker]

The prosecutor had asked the judge to impose a five-year prison sentence

5 years for expressing a different opinion??

:O

[Alalzia]

5 years for expressing a different opinion??

:O

Well, as you may know democracy is something that grows into a society before it is mature enough to become reality.
Forced democracy kemal style (ok i will not mention the 500.000 Turks who wen behind bars between years 1945-1949 for expressing different opinion) always turn like that .

[Balozi]

turkey may well become a fascist state, the way things are going

[Toskaliq 8711]

Liberal laws are for countries that have developed a tradition or unity, order and have created a solid structure. Unless those are created, these kinds of laws have their place. Turkey, I think, is one of the latter countries. I dont see anything wrong with laws to punish those who insult national figures or ideology. As time goes on, however, and state unity is further solidified, they lose their place. Perhaps in 30-40 years, Turkey will be able to life such Draconic laws.

I support such laws for most places in the Balkans, including my own country, Albania.

[Attila]

Forced democracy kemal style (ok i will not mention the 500.000 Turks who wen behind bars between years 1945-1949 for expressing different opinion) always turn like that .

Forced Democracy?

You mean changing the thousands years of ruling regime into Republican system and allow people to choose their own leader?

Oh sure he did such a horrible thing isn't it?

He tried many times to achieve multiple parties but there were consequences of it.

The people who wanted the dynasty and caliphat back tried to stop the improvment of Turkey.

I underline the statement "to stop the improvement of Turkey"
because we have seen what the Dynasty and their people have done for the last 300 years.

Haven't even contributed the independence struggle of Turkish people.
It is easy to manipluate the democracy and abuse the people who didn't know anything but being Ottoman

Atatürk in the first 10 years
increased the literacy 80%
Build hundereds of factories including aeroplane factory in Eskisehir city.
Building submarines in Tuzla
brought justice on taxation and abolished the extra taxes on farming.
He gave the right to elect and be elected women even before every other state in the region.
The first woman war pilots were recruited.
He brought the code of civil law and made women equal to man under any circumstances.
all those happened in 10 years

And Alalzia don't you call him "kemal" again
He is Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.
and the majority of Turkish people including me are very sensible in this issue

so if we look at the first rule of democracy which is the sacred decision of the majority.

The majority decided and the rest has to obey. Thats all
clear and simple

[Alalzia]

Attila you only quoted part of my post , i explained my position in the first sentence , look what is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan , both typical examples of forced democracy on amature societies.

Forcing democracy is like a rapist claiming that he is forcing orgasms.

[Attila]

Attila you only quoted part of my post , i explained my position in the first sentence , look what is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan , both typical examples of forced democracy on amature societies.

Forcing democracy is like a rapist claiming that he is forcing orgasms.

Your appology is even bigger than your mistake
How can you compare
Iraq and Afgansitan with Turkey?
They are not even democtratic they have only puppet governments

You are confusing the term "Forced Democracy" with "Top-Down Revolution"

There were no bourgeois class in Turkey to make such a revolution as in French revolution.
So there elites of Turkish society had to handle it
which is army officers and few intellectuals thats why it seems like forced democracy to you

please do not empty the semantics of terms in order to throw crap to Turks again

[Alalzia]

Your appology is even bigger than your mistake
How can you compare
Iraq and Afgansitan with Turkey?
They are not even democtratic they have only puppet governments

You are confusing the term "Forced Democracy" with "Top-Down Revolution"

There were no bourgeois class in Turkey to make such a revolution as in French revolution.
So there elites of Turkish society had to handle it
which is army officers and few intellectuals thats why it seems like forced democracy to you

please do not empty the semantics of terms in order to throw crap to Turks again

Turkey of 1920 was different from what Iraq is today? i doubt it , go back in your history books.
I had nor intention to throw crap on anyone neither to apologize.

[Attila]

Turkey of 1920 was different from what Iraq is today? i doubt it , go back in your history books.
Again problems with our history books? :)

There is not even a similarity
There are huge differences let me remind you one
Iraqies are ass kicked by invaders
however
We kicked your ass instead :D



I had nor intention to throw crap on anyone
Well that is what I doubt ;)



neither to apologize.
This is obvious no need to mention it :)

[WisdomSeeker]

We kicked your ass instead

I bet Greece by gaining Thessaly,Macedonia,Thrace from the Ottoman Empire has been kicked in the ass indeed :D

Grow up kardesh.

[Alalzia]

Iraqies are ass kicked by invaders
however
We kicked your ass instead :D


Our ass? from the 200.000 men called in arms 90.000 got their weapons and deserted starting the war against landlords , much more deserted on the way because the purpose of the Greek army was not to play the protector of the British interests in the area.
We do have a sense of what is right and what is wrong and we don't blindly follow stupid leaders as others do.

Turkey was divided in "areas" like the Italian , the French and the British just like in Iraq, the sultan was a puppet just like Iraq , different ethnic factions fought each other
just like in Iraq .
At the same time Greece was pulled by the nose to fight against the Soviet revolution in Crimea , when the 2 battalions left they relocated in Smyrna where they fought against.... Italian army .

[Attila]

Our ass? from the 200.000 men called in arms 90.000 got their weapons and deserted starting the war against landlords , much more deserted on the way because the purpose of the Greek army was not to play the protector of the British interests in the area.
We do have a sense of what is right and what is wrong and we don't blindly follow stupid leaders as others do.


Then what was the purpose of the Greek invasion to Turkish lands since Greece is the only country in WW1 hasn't even fire 1 bullet against Turks
So you invasion is illegal in this sense but you can legitimize it by joining the British side

British supported you legitimze their invasion too
They put lots of pressure on Greece to hold Turkey so that others could save their ass from Bolsheviks
Even Greek king came himself to Anatolia and organizing the inavsion.

Everybody knew that If the revolution in Turkey wouldn't survive the revolution of Soviet Union would never survive either.

Thats why in every meeting we had with Allied forces
while we are negotiating, behind our kalpak hats with moon and cresent they were seeing the "soviet star" in the background

Ottoman king and government was puppet thats very true
They even ordered to arrest dead or alive M.K Atatürk anywhere possible. Because Turks were against this illegal invasion. We didin't loose anypart of our lands to you. Which lands did you get during the ww1? no place at all.

Anyway then Greece desperately charged your mighty glorious General Trikopis as the chief general in command which means you concentrated all your power in Anatolia
proof?
1-Greek king came to Anatolia to increase morale
2- General mobilization was announced in entire Greek lands.
3- General Trikopis appointed as the Chief General staff of entire Greek army while he was in Anatolia

Then General Trikopis is "surrendered" to Atatürk.
Here comes the funny part

Atatürk congratulated him: "Congratulations General Trikopis you are announced as the chief general in command 1 hour ago"

ahahahahahahahah

This makes us different dude ;)

[Alalzia]

You still didn't get it .
Greece had no interest to make any campaign either in Asia Minor or Crimea , even the soldiers didn't wanna fight .
To many of us including me both cases were imperialistic attacks against sovereign countries .
The Greek army wasn't there to serve any Greek interests , it was there to protect the UK (you may know they demanded 20km from both sides of the Kirkuk railroad) .
The role of the army in Smyni area was the same as KFOR in Kosovo , occupation force on police role nothing else.
It was never about getting or losing lands and people did know thats why they refused to fight , we didn't lose any war UK did ( Greek army was under their direct command anyway) .
For some reason you think that all Greeks are raised with the bullshit of Megali Idea worshiping bastards like Trikoupis and Venizelos , you are wrong.

[Attila]

No I don't get it and I don't think anyone got anythig but yourslef.

Because under these circumstances;

1-Greek king came to Anatolia to increase morale
2- General mobilization was announced in entire Greek lands.
3- General Trikopis appointed as the Chief General staff of entire Greek army while he was in Anatolia

Your pittyful country started a major invasion with full effort even marched until Ankara

You waged war upon Turks and suffered the consequences

So please anyone here tell if you believe such a BS


It was never about getting or losing lands and people did know thats why they refused to fight , we didn't lose any war UK did.

I am not trying t offend you but killing all those people in my homeland is not a police work

Do you think everybody is stupid here? Your king entered Symirni by stepping on the Turkish flag

After the liberation of İzmir Atatürk didin't step on your flag he said "The king of Greece may done a mistake but a flag represents the people of that country"

I hope you get something now did you?

[Alalzia]

First of all the landing of the Greek army was authorized by Lloyd George .


"SAYS LLOYD GEORGE MISLED THE GREEKS; Gounaris's Secretary Asserts He Urged Asia Minor Drive, Deserted When It Failed INDIRECTLY CAUSED REVOLT And Helped to Bring on Executions--Gounaris's Appeal aTheme in Commons."

you can download a document from here :
http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/575be49f95_0.23MB

article also can be found here (http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/575be49f95_0.23MB)

I think it is pretty obvious that this was not our war.

-The King was not working for Greek interests
-As i already told you 90/200k soldiers deserted immediately , much more after the 1st year
-Trikoupis was actually follow British commands.
-Greek country was full of "thiefs" with military uniforms armed to the teeth that fought against landlords , police and plutocracy (actually this was our war)


My family never suffer anything from anyone, we are the the kind of Greeks that make others suffer and generally never show any petty for losers.

[TurkishDelight]

Comparing 1920s Turkey with Afganistan and Iraq is rather unfair. For a start Ottoman Empire was a emperial power not some sort of collony but it has collapsed because of the dreadful out come of the I. WW. This was not our war but we have entered and lost the war. I believe majority Balkan countries lead by Greece have some negative feelings towrds us Turkey because we ruled them for a long time. Romantic historians in Turkey claim that those countries in Balkans and Middle east were better managed and govern by us then at present. At least they did not have some bloodshed and constant battle among themselves. Do I agree with that statement? To a extend yes but then we had no right to go and invade other people countries. However we are not the only ones by any means. Ancient Greeks had invaded our country (anatolia). Romans invaded half of the known world in their times. French and British colonized the a lot of countries. We take alot of negative publicity because we were the muslims whom colonised Christians. That seems to be very unacceptable in the western world. Greeks have been used to reflect those negativity to us. I never come cross Greek hating Turks in Turkey (honestly) but you will find many Greeks absolutely hate Turks and anything Turkish. During the Anatolian invation of Greek Troops after the I.WW They had no bussines in our country but they have collaborated with English to do their dirty work for them quite happly. They have died in masses in order to achive British goals in our country but they belived that they were doing that for themselves. Centuries long revenge and Helenising the Asia minor (Megalo İdea). They have lost because although our military was dismissed and disposed and we had no weapons we had determination to fight against emperialist forces and their puppets (Greeks). Were we democratic country in 1920's and 1930's? Maybe not the way modern democracy function today but we were more democratic then greece because we did not monarchs. We had one party and one leader but who can say that was a wrong rejim for the times. Italy had Mussollini, Germany had Hitler and Spain had Franco much later then we had strong leader figure and ours did not lead us into the self destruction. Now we have multiple party election system (since 1950's). We have more political parties in this country then most of the countries in the world. Those parties do represent different views and values within this society which is called democracy. However, there are some ancient laws within our constitution which have to be changed and adapted into the 21th century. Article 131 is one of them and the most important one. Because it is open to interpretation by juristification. What is that mean anyway 'insulting Turkishness and inciting religious and racial hatred'? This article has been used to bring alot of intellectuel to the court and also protect state organisation such as military and police forces. So you can even critisized those organisations publicly because some judge may thing that is insulting Turkishness. I am for freedom of speech regardless the contents. Then USA and Britain also scrutinize the contents of the literature esspecially on Islam due to inciting religious and racial hatred. In germany you can support Nazi views and values openly and you cannot have swastika as symbol of your organisation. So other countries in the world also have similiar preventive legislation. I am against them all. Anyway food for thought at least.

[Attila]

little correction

we did not have parties back in 1920 we had parlementary government system which was way more democratic than todays system.
Because in parlemtary government system
Parlament elects each minister among themselves
To be a minister one should gain half+1 votes to achieve the vote of confidence

Our democracy history has started before the "modern" Greeks
During the revolution Atatürk didin't have to open a parlament.

After 1974 the government of Turkish Republic of North Cyprus immediately established.
We don't make any move without democracy
However Democracy doesn't mean the complete freedom of people which eventually would cause "caos"
may be thats what Greeks want for us
shaking the fundemantals of the country in the name of democracy is only hypocracy


I believe in the decision of the majority is stronger than anything

You know where Turkish people stand if someone insults Atatürk or his ideas
As Turkish people we don't want anyone to speak something about M.K Atatürk this is a simple fact and all we want is just some understanding about this issue
even it means restriction of our rights or few peoples
because as huge amount of people we are against it
thats all

We have no problems with that at all and I don't see the reason why you have that? *cough besides throwing mud on us one more time *cough

[kassandros]

Ancient Greeks had invaded our country (anatolia).

When happened this?As far as I know, the turks arrived in Asia Minor around 1000AC, the ancient greeks that colonised the shores of Asia Minor starting from 600BC didn't find any turk there....

[Attila]

Ancient Greeks had invaded our country (anatolia).

When happened this?As far as I know, the turks arrived in Asia Minor around 1000AC, the ancient greeks that colonised the shores of Asia Minor starting from 600BC didn't find any turk there....

You know what he was reffering to...
anyway even when we came to Anatolia
It wasn't Greek lands anymore all those places were colonized by latin catholic families
even in crete and cyprus,rodos there were latin families ruling and enslaving Greeks. So basicly Byzantine was loosing her power and there were nobody to save Greeks neither from latins nor from Turks.
Byzantine had only one main dock in entire aegean. and dismissed a huge amount of Greeks who were working as ship builders. They simply abandoned those people to their own destiny.

Interetsing point is when we arrived anatolia we had absolutely no idea how to make ships however guess who made the ships for us and trained sailors?? and why?

[Alalzia]

You know what he was reffering to...
anyway even when we came to Anatolia
It wasn't Greek lands anymore all those places were colonized by latin catholic families
even in crete and cyprus,rodos there were latin families ruling and enslaving Greeks. So basicly Byzantine was loosing her power and there were nobody to save Greeks neither from latins nor from Turks.
Byzantine had only one main dock in entire aegean. and dismissed a huge amount of Greeks who were working as ship builders. They simply abandoned those people to their own destiny.

Interetsing point is when we arrived anatolia we had absolutely no idea how to make ships however guess who made the ships for us and trained sailors?? and why?

Greeks were sick of the Byzantines , their intrigues , their taxes and their attitude . The general feeling that Greeks and Turks were enemies is historically wrong , most of the Greeks states in the area had friendly relations with their moslem neighbors and often used them as mercenaries to fight eachother ( Despotato of Hperios vs Empire of Nikaia anyone?) .
Some Greeks were ambitious and living inside the Byzantine state knew how politics work , they converted to islam got the best positions and drive Ottos against the decaying Empire (Admiral Evren) .
If you think that the siege of Konstantinoupolis was a Turkish idea you are wrong , it was like Isnogood who wants to be a Calif in the place of Calif ...unless you think that the tribal Turks had the aspiration of an Empire on their own :D
Muslim Ottoman empire was the continuation of the Christian Byzantine one just like the Christian Byzantine was the continuation of the Pagan Roman , look at the reasons all three collapsed and i think it becomes obvious .

[TurkishDelight]

We considered our identity as Turks but we are racially Anatolian stock which mixed with ancient Turks and others. So ancient Anatolians are our ancestors. Just for an example AngloSaxons came to Britain about the same time Turks came to Anatolia but you cannot say modern British are Germans or Danes. They call their identity AngloSaxon but Islanders before them also their ancestors. Do you get it..

[TurkishDelight]

Well done Allazia. Well explained.

[WisdomSeeker]

So ancient Anatolians are our ancestors.

And who were those ''Ancient Anatolians'' TD?

Were they the Ionians as many of your university proffessors say,meaning do you regard the ionian ruins in Asia Minor as a culture that was made by your own people,for example?

[Alalzia]

Ancient Anatolians like Hittites, Lydians , Phrigians , People of the Sea and Phoenicians have no connection either with modern Turks or modern Greeks .
Red haired Turks are of Gaelic ancestry ( you do know that the area around Ankara was named Galatia because Gauls lived there, right?) , Blond Turks are probably Kirkasian etc
It is much easier to seek our blood connections with medieval people rather than ancient ones .

[KsanthoS]

According to a research, %10 of the population living in Turkey have pure blood connection with Turks of Central Asia.

Nobody's claiming that we are Hitites, Ionians or Urartu, but there were people living in Anatolia when the Turks came here and they didn't just disappear. They were mixed with Turks coming from Central Asia.

[TurkishDelight]

10%. this is impossible. There is not any pure blood Turks whatsoever. Most of the ancient anatolians (Urartians, Hitites, Ioanians, Lycians, Galatians, Trojans, Lydians, etc...) were melted in the pot with more mediaval one (Caucasians, Turks, Arabs, Persians, Kurds, latins, Greeks etc..). So there is not any pure blooded Turks so the speak. Why me saying that some of the my ancestors ancient Anatolians is disturbing for you. I don't understand that. Alacahoyuk is buılt by Hitites and they are my ancestors. Troy was built by Trojans and they are also my ancestors. Tlos and xhantos were built by Lycians and they are my anchestors. Simple is that. I am Anatolian and I am proud of it but my modern identity is Turkish and that is nothing to do blood.

[kassandros]

10%. this is impossible. There is not any pure blood Turks whatsoever. Most of the ancient anatolians (Urartians, Hitites, Ioanians, Lycians, Galatians, Trojans, Lydians, etc...) were melted in the pot with more mediaval one (Caucasians, Turks, Arabs, Persians, Kurds, latins, Greeks etc..). So there is not any pure blooded Turks so the speak. Why me saying that some of the my ancestors ancient Anatolians is disturbing for you. I don't understand that. Alacahoyuk is buılt by Hitites and they are my ancestors. Troy was built by Trojans and they are also my ancestors. Tlos and xhantos were built by Lycians and they are my anchestors. Simple is that. I am Anatolian and I am proud of it but my modern identity is Turkish and that is nothing to do blood.



You missed a point : ionians = greeks, the greeks didn't arrive in Asia minor in the middle ages dear friend.

[dimitris]

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2008/06/20/armenian_wideweb__470x314,0.jpg
Flashpoint … a pro-Armenian march in Istanbul.
Photo: AP


Guilty: publisher sentenced over book on genocide

Robert Tait in Istanbul
June 21, 2008

THE PUBLISHER of a book by a British author acknowledging the 1915 Armenian genocide has been convicted under Turkey's notorious article 301, despite reforms intended to make the law less draconian.

A judge sentenced Ragip Zarakolu to five months in prison after ruling that The Truth Will Set Us Free, written by George Jerjian, "insulted the Turkish republic".

The conviction came despite a letter of support from the author to the court arguing that his book was intended to forge a "new understanding of history between Turks and Armenians".

Translated into Turkish in 2005, Jerjian's book tells the story of the slaughter of up to 1.5 million Armenians by Ottoman forces during World War I through the eyes of his Armenian grandmother, who survived largely thanks to the protection of a Turkish soldier.

Turkey disputes allegations that the Armenians' deaths were a result of genocide.

Mr Zarakolu, who was acquitted of a separate charge of insulting the memory of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the founder of modern Turkey, has been freed on appeal.

He is not expected to serve time after the judge ruled that his sentence could be reduced to a fine, citing good behaviour.

The case, which has lasted more than three years, prompted members of the European Parliament, human rights organisations and the international writers' group Pen to campaign on Mr Zarakolu's behalf.

His conviction is the first since the Turkish Government, led by the Justice and Development Party, or AKP, revised article 301 in April under pressure from domestic and foreign critics, who saw it as the country's most significant restriction on free speech.

The altered law banished the crime of insulting "Turkishness" and reduced the maximum sentence from three to two years. The law also laid down that all prosecutions need prior approval from the justice minister.

The law was first introduced by the AKP in 2005 and has been used to prosecute 60 writers and journalists, including Orhan Pamuk, who was charged after telling a Swiss newspaper that no one in Turkey dared mention the Armenian deaths or those of 30,000 Kurds. The charges against him were later dropped.

Mr Zarakolu, 60, whose human rights activities earned him two spells in prison during the 1970s, has faced official harassment for numerous publications over the years.

Guardian News & Media


Link (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/06/20/1213770924679.html)

[Balozi]

the comedy never ends

[TurkishDelight]

I meant was Modern Greeks I was not talking about Ancient Greeks such as Ionians.

[TurkishDelight]

Article 301 has to go. I think these type of legislations that open to misinterpretation have no place in modern legislative frameworks.

[dimitris]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45300000/jpg/_45300006_004775214-1.jpg
Hundreds of thousands of Armenians died while being forced out of Turkey


Turkey probes massacre petition


Page last updated at 18:37 GMT, Friday, 9 January 2009

A Turkish prosecutor has opened an investigation against the authors of an online petition that apologises for the World War I massacres of Armenians.

It could lead to charges under the law against "insulting Turkishness".

Turkey's prime minister has criticised the petition, launched by more than 200 Turkish academics and newspaper columnists last month.

Hundreds of thousands of Armenians died at the hands of Ottoman Turks in 1915. Turkey denies that it was genocide.

Discussion of the issue is taboo in Turkey and has led to prosecution in the past.

The intellectuals behind the petition say they want to challenge the official denial and provoke discussion in Turkish society about what happened.

The petition is entitled "I apologise".

Police said on Friday they had information that a man arrested this week was gathering intelligence and planning an attack against one of the organisers of the apology campaign.

Police said he had recently travelled to several cities and made it known that he was planning an action that would "shake Turkey", the BBC was told by a source who did not want to be named.

The man's uncle was reportedly among more than 30 people arrested on Wednesday in connection with an alleged ultra-nationalist coup plot.

Documents found in the raids led to the discovery of weapons and explosives in the forest outside Ankara, police say.

Some Turkish writers, who have promoted more open discussion of the Armenian issue, have been targeted by ultra-nationalist Turks.

The Turkish-Armenian writer Hrant Dink was killed last year for openly saying that the events of 1915 were genocide.

Previously he had been tried for "insulting Turkishness" for his comments on 1915.

Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7821159.stm)

[Balozi]

i wonder what's next in this circus