Muslim Minority in Hellas

[airwings]

GENERAL

Pomaks, along with Turks and Muslim Roma living in Thrace, are officially recognized as a religious Muslim minority, in accordance with the Treaty of Lausanne (1923) and formally enjoy the corresponding rights, though they have been treated as Turkish and not Pomak speakers by the authorities. So, there is no teaching of their language, despite the Treaty of Lausanne’s guarantee of education in the Muslims’ own language; this deficiency is admitted even by the official Hellenic authorities (COMS, 1994). Likewise, there is no teaching in Pomak, but it is sometimes used by teachers to explain some things orally to kindergarten and primary school pupils. If required, Pomak may be used in courts and interpreters will be provided, as this is guaranteed by the Treaty of Lausanne: nevertheless, Pomaks use Turkish in such occasions.

Assessing the number of Turks and Pomacs in Hellas is problematic. The census of 1928 recorded 191,254 Turks while the 1951 census recorded 179,895 Turks of whom virtually all were either Muslim by religion, 92,219, or Orthodox, 86,838. While some live on the Hellenic islands neighbouring Turkey, most live in Western Thrace. The Pomaks, Muslim Slavs, or a small number of Muslim Hellenics, tend to live also in Western Thrace in villages in the southern Rhodope and due to the official reticence to give figures for ethnic minorities, only for religious ones, it is hard to separate them from the Turks; however, the villages near the Bulgarian border in all three provinces of Western Thrace are predominantly Pomak with the exception of some like Mikron Dereion which have a mixed population of ethnic Turks, Pomaks and Hellenic Orthodox, or others which have a sedentary Muslim Gypsy population. Many Pomaks also live in Komotini and Xantini and some also live in Dhidhimotikhon.
Official Hellenic sources tend to claim that the Turks are Pomaks or Muslim Hellenics while, conversely the Turks claim the Pomaks as Turks. Estimates from the Information Office at the Hellenic Embassy in London based on the 1981 census figures give a total of 110,000 people belonging to religious minorities of whom some 60,000 are Turkish-speaking Muslims; 30,000 Pomaks; and 20,000 Athingani (descendants of Christian heretics expelled from Asia Minor during Byzantine rule) or Roma Gypsies. However, Turkish Muslim sources from Western Thrace claim a total of 100,000 to 120,000 Turkish-speaking Muslims in Western Thrace and most observers estimate between 100,000 and 120,000 Muslims out of a total population for Western Thrace of some 360,000 recorded in the census of 1971. Of the other minorities there are small populations of Gagauz, Christian Turkish-speaking people, for example around the city of Alexandroupolis, and Sarakatsani, Hellenic speaking transhumants, especially in the village of Palladion. Fieldwork by F. De Jong in 1979, to whom much of the above is indebted, notes that there are no longer any Circassians in Western Thrace.

Education

In the vital field of education the Hellenic authorities have steadily increased teaching in Hellenic at the expense of Turkish. From the 1960s onwards religious teachers from the Arab world have progressively been reduced while the employment of teachers from Turkey to Turkish schools in Western Thrace has been stopped. Since 1968 only graduates from a special academy in Thessaloniki [Selanik] can be qualified to teach in Turkish schools. This academy takes much of its intake from Greek secondary schools and, its critics claim, relies on an outdated religious curriculum deliberately to create an incompetent Hellenized education system in Western Thrace isolated from the mainstream of modern Turkish culture. The situation has deteriorated with the authorities introducing an entrance exam for the two Turkish secondary minority schools in Komotini and Xanthi - there are some 300 Turkish primary schools - and a directorate from the government in March 1984 stipulating that graduate examinations from Turkish secondary and high schools have to be in Hellenic.The implementation of this law in 1985 with, in some cases, merely a few months' notice was extremely hard on the unfortunate students. The result of these measures has been a dramatic decline in secondary school students in Turkish schools from 227 in Xanthi and 305 in Komotini in 1983-4, to 85 and 42, respectively, in 1986-7. Greek history books portray Turks in crude stereotypes and while Turkish pupils are allowed some books from Turkey, there have been inexplicable delays resulting in long outdated textbooks having to be used.
The authorities have also prohibited the use of the adjective "Turkish" in titles denoting associations etc. and the Turkish Teachers Association in Western Thrace was closed by order of Komotini court on 20 March 1986, a decision upheld by the Athens High Court on 28 July 1987.

POMAKS

Pomaks are those whose mother tongue is Pomakika (name in Greek -Πομάκοι)/ Pomakci (name in their language); most linguists call that language Pomak and, sometimes, Bulgarian. The Pomak language belongs to the linguistic family of the Southern Slavic languages, and, within them, to the linguistic group of Bulgaro-Macedonian. There is no information on Pomak dialects. Although there is no written tradition, the appropriate alphabet to write the language is the Cyrillic. It is generally believed that Pomak is one of the various Bulgaro-Macedonian dialects which existed in the Southern Balkans before the emergence of modern nation-states and their corresponding literary languages.
Pomaks live in the three departments of Western Thrace: they are the main component of the Muslim (in fact today Turkish) minority in Xanthi. There have not been any official statistics since 1951 (and the preceding statistical data are not very trustworthy). The best estimate for the Pomaks today is a figure around 30,000. The Greek state gives an estimate of 35,000 (COMS, 1994); so do authors ‘acceptable’ to the Greek state: Hidiroglou (1991:45) and Notaras (1994:47). The 30,000 estimate is based on a Hellenic Helsinki Monitor/Minority Rights Group-Greece detailed estimation, on the basis of the census data and the synthesis of the minority communities as provided by both the Greek authorities and local minority sources. It is also the estimate of Nakratzas (1988:131) and De Jong (1994). Seyppel (1989:42) gives an estimate of 20,000-30,000.
The historical origins of the Pomaks or Achrjani (as they also used to call themselves) are obscure (De Jong (1980:95); moreover, very little is known about their evolution, even as recently as in the XIX century. This ignorance therefore provides a fertile ground for another controversy in the Balkans. As Bulgarians, Hellenics and Turks all claim that Pomaks are a component of their respective nations or simply want to assimilate them (Sarides, 1987), they provide different ‘national histories’ (or perhaps ‘national fictions’) which usually ‘devaluate or ignore “disturbing” facts’ (Seyppel, 1989:43 & 48).
Authors consider Pomaks to be the descendants of ancient Thracian tribes which were in turn Hellenized, Latinized, Slavized, Christianized and finally Islamized. Those of them who stayed in the mountains succeeded in remaining ‘pure’ descendants of these ancient tribes and they have many Hellenic, if not Homeric, words in their vocabulary. Greeks even use anthropometric and ‘blood-group’ research to prove that Pomaks are very different from Turks and are similar to Greeks (Seyppel, 1989:42; Sarides, 1987 and references therein; Hidiroglou, 1991 and references therein). For Hellenics, Pomak is a derivative of the Ancient Greek word ‘Pomax’ (‘drinker’) which reflects the Thracians’ known habit of drinking; and Achrjani is a derivative of the ancient Thracian tribe of ‘Agrianoi’ (Seyppel, 1989:48).

Current situation of the community and the language

Through the end of 1995, most Pomaks lived in a military “restricted zone”, access to which required a special permission, hardly ever granted to foreigners and therefore to foreign scholars (Seyppel, 1989:44). The zone was abolished in November 1995. The inhabitants of the villages within the zone have had special identity cards which restrict their freedom of movement within the limits of the department (within 30 km from their village through 1992): to travel or resettle further away, they too need a permit from the authorities, although this provision appears not to be strictly enforced (Dimitras, 1991:78; & 1994:21-2). These special measures were not abolished in November 1995.
Pomaks identify themselves with the Turks and, in the presence of outsiders, would even change the language of communication among themselves from Pomak into Turkish (Seyppel, 1989:47; Frangopoulos, 1990:90; Dimitras, 1991:77). Most Pomaks have today a double identity: an ethnic Pomak and a national Turkish one (see Dede, 1994:13). This assimilation into the Turkish nation was certainly helped by the Hellenic state’s decision, in 1951, to introduce Turkish-language education for Pomaks in an effort to distance them from Bulgarians. But, it is believed that the main reason for the Muslim minority’s homogenization has been the Pomaks’ feeling that through their identification with Turks they would no longer be a minority into a minority, or have no one to defend their rights.
Some Pomaks go as far as denying the existence of an ethnic Pomak identity, deny the existence of a separate ethnic identity besides their Hellenic national identity. Moreover, they hear with incredulity that their language can be written, believing that such efforts are aiming at distancing them from Turks (Frangopoulos, 1988:4).
So, there is no distinct Pomak leadership today: the community’s leaders form part of the Turkish minority leadership and defend Pomak interests as Turkish interests (Sarides, 1987). Pomaks, Turks and Muslim Roma in Thrace face many problems of discrimination from Hellenic authorities and a growing hostility from Hellenic public opinion (Helsinki Watch, 1990; Dimitras, 1991 & 1994). The persistent refusal of Hellenic authorities to respond to the minority’s demands led to a radicalization of the minority’s attitude, reflected also in the emergence since 1985 of independent minority candidates who have been receiving the majority of Muslim votes. Pomaks are also resenting the new effort of Hellenic authorities, evident since 1994, to attempt to dissociate them from the Turks and to give -at least to the most cooperating among- them some privileges, like access to higher education institutions or to officer rank during their military service: when Pomak leaders protest and remind that they have a Turkish national or ethnic identity, they become the object of violent, often insulting, attacks by Hellenic media (like Kathimerini) and political leaders (like the Parliament’s Speaker Apostolos Kaklamanis).
In education, the Pomak language has never been included in the educational curricula of the modern Hellenic state, but it is used as a means of communication among pupils at schools and, at the kindergartenand elementary level, sometimes by teachers. Otherwise, Pomaks attend the same schools with Turks and Muslim Roma in Thrace. According to Hellenic authorities, in 1994, for the whole Muslim (indeed Turkish) community, there were 231 Muslim elementary schools with 8,591 pupils and two minority secondary schools plus two Muslim seminars with 511 students: the secondary schools are obviously insufficient for the needs of the community, which is thus discouraged to send the children beyond primary school, although, according to Hellenic law, education is mandatory through the third year of secondary school. Many Pomak families, just like many Turkish families, therefore choose to send their children to schools in Turkey. Moreover, there is hardly any use of the language towards the authorities and in public services: in theory, Pomaks are allowed to address them in their language, through interpreters, but, as most speak Hellenic, they hardly ever opt to do it.
Today, most Pomaks are fluent in Turkish (the language of their education and the dominant language within the broad Muslim community), understand some Arabic (the language of the Koran) and can also speak Hellenic (a language they use to communicate with Hellenic s and Hellenic authorities). In the mountain villages, most speak Pomak at home; their language does not seem to be severely threatened with extinction and its use is not systematically discouraged by Greek authorities; nevertheless, as Pomaks identify with Turks, there is a tendency among the latter to discourage the use of Pomak, so as to achieve a better homogenization (i.e. Turkification) of the Muslim minority. Moreover, it appears that there is a slow decline in the use of the language among younger generations (De Jong, 1994).
Finally, although Pomaks live on the other side of the Hellenic-Bulgarian frontier too, there are very few transfrontier contacts: in fact, since the beginning of the Cold War, border crossings to Bulgaria have been closed in the two departments with significant Pomak populations (Xanthi and Rodopi), as Hellenic authorities wanted to avoid Bulgarian infiltration of the Pomaks of Hellas . In late 1995, Hellas and Bulgaria agreed to reopen these crossings. Their closing was one reason why most Pomak villages had since then been included in restricted military zones, with special permits been required to enter in or leave from these zones, even through 1994.

[shqiponja]

Well it seems that Greeks arent exactly angels when speaking about minorities after all, right? Just read the paragraph about the education and u'll see the assimilation process. The same that has happened to the "non existant", according to airwings, Albanians of Epirus.


Through the end of 1995, most Pomaks lived in a military “restricted zone”, access to which required a special permission, hardly ever granted to foreigners and therefore to foreign scholars (Seyppel, 1989:44). The zone was abolished in November 1995.
And then you complain about the situation in South Albania. :roll:

Airwings, you surprise me, giving out such an article.

[airwings]

Of course and is the truth. In 1995 was in Hellas or in the Democratic land of Berisha?

[dimitris]

Of course and is the truth. In 1995 was in Hellas or in the Democratic land of Berisha?

Airwings, i was just wondering something.Do you have the link to this article?

Thanks in advance

[Kula]

How did your government come up with a Pomak language?

[Alalzia]

Pomak language isnt a written one , pomaks are learning turkish on their schools , minority schools exist only in thrace and since many minority members live in downtown athens i bet some of them are learning greek as well (or french if they attent french schools).
The general feeling is that pomaks are getting turkified but since they dont do shit to preserve their identity why should we?

[Kula]

Yeah they are getting turkified, screw them who cares.

However the language they speak is nothing more than Bulgarian, they showed a Pomak dictionary published in Greece with Greek translation of Bulgarian words written in Latin. That sucks.

[Alalzia]

A book in Greenglish?
Who was the author grnet (greek irc net)?

LOL

[Attila]

Yeah they are getting turkified, screw them who cares.





The general feeling is that pomaks are getting turkified but since they dont do shit to preserve their identity why should we?

Why don't you make a website to discuss your Turkish-hatred
or could you address me some

cuz I really want to advertise them in Turkey to show what you think about our people each time they speak very friendly about Greeks

if it is the way you behave non-christians or non-greeks in your country it doesn't surprise me if they want to be Turkish
they are always wellcome
I feel sorry for you

shame.

[Kula]

I don't hate Turks, I just don't like the use of propaganda and Islam to turkify the Pomaks. That's especially true for Bulgaria, where the ethnic Turk party ( DPS ) invests huge money to make these people Turkish so they can vote for them. Besides not only do they turkify the Pomaks, they also organise huge 'voting trips' from Edirne and Thracian Turkey for Turks who have Bulgarian passport. And although barely speaking Bulgarian and having zero knowledge of Bulgarian politics they come here on every election and vote for that party. On every election they have more seats in the parliament, more influence, more ministers in the government etc. Not that they don't deserve to be represented in the parliament, but that's just irritating.

Alalzia, I was talking about the Greek government publishing Pomak grammar books and dictionaries and presenting the Bulgarian language as Pomak.

[Venstar]

Airwings, there is no Pomak language with ancient roots. Its is considered Bulgarian. Look at Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomaks)for a short overview.

So they are realy getting turkyfied. Since it is certain that their language is Slavic. The mainstream theory of their origin is that they were converted to Islam when the Ottomans conquered the Balkans. Now they are tought in Turkish! Nothing against the Turks and their language, but here we have a very strange case.

I do not understand why.

Regards,
Venelin

[Alalzia]

First of all it is beleived that pomaks are a thracian tribe, so no greeks neither turks nor bulgarians, it is just the pomaks. I have no idea what their language sounds like, some say it is a bulgarian idiom like the so called "macedonian" . Pomaks know that they will still be a minority living in greece, bulgaria or turkey so i dont think it makes any difference to them on wich side of the border they live.I dont see why we should preserve pomak culture /language , it isnt our problem , if the pomaks want to do something about it they can ask for EU founds, it isnt at all hard to do . I beleive the government just didnt want to invest in special schools since most of them will move to athens sooner or later (if they havnt already) , after all pomaks, gypsies, turks it is all the same for us.
Although greece 's population consists 98% of greeks there are still people who dont consider themselfs part of us , those people exist becouse we didnt genocide them , we didnt burnt their houses and we didnt put mothers to eat their babies, shame eh?
I have much more important things to do than hating anyone,racial hate is for underdeveloped, ugly , unsexed , stupid people .I am not a christian , im an atheist and i only get some problems when i tease adults with imaginary friends , slight problems not serius ones.

[Kula]

Well it's believed but it's not backed by any facts let alone proven, anyway I have no problem with them living in Greece, becoming Turks or whatever. You are right their language is just like the 'macedonian', but it's not even a real dialect of Bulgarian, it's just pure Bulgarian with some Turkish words which exist in Bulgarian too. And people don't like it when this language is being presented as 'Pomak'. Not that it's such a big deal, but Greeks often claim people in FYROM speak a Bulgarian dialect but their government tries to make the same as the communists did in 1945.

[Alalzia]

To put is as simple as it can get, greece has 1.300.000 foreign workers (and a rising number of european citizens in some islands they are like 20% of the population) minorities are not an issue, either you have the right pappers or you dont, you have work permitt or you dont .
If they want to call their language "martian" and open a university to teach it they are free to do so.

[Attila]

Although greece 's population consists 98% of greeks there are still people who dont consider themselfs part of us , those people exist becouse we didnt genocide them , we didnt burnt their houses and we didnt put mothers to eat their babies, shame eh?

if you believe so.. I am sure you will stick with it

[tsunami]

Alalzia, is very right on this, Hellas is changing years now, the Gov does not really care under the umbrella of the EU and is deeper integrating to higher standards of civil rights, similar to the Scandinavian and British model, "all are welcome" policy.

However Balkan countries still keep traces in the past as they still tend to use "minorities" as a weapon in foreign policy.

Turkey, leading the branch is once again showing its attitude towards entry, they are commiting suicide in front of the eyes of the world.

They are stuck in the past, struggling to creare ethnicity; Kemalic ethnicity by violating many standards of the peacefull "multi-culturalism" of the EU pillars.


Dont worry Kula, they will do what they do best "kill themselves" in the diplomatic arena.

[Alalzia]

Greece is member of eu for the last 25 years, he have rised with democtatic ideas and values, that for we as people will never accept any kind of discrimination against fellow citizens . We are defending our rights to equality and respect becouse if you dont first gov will see muslims as enemies, then it will see vegetarians , or anarchists , or disabled people. Treating the minority as ourselfs is the fundametal of preserving our civil rights and freedom and thats what we do and i hope that gov is doing the same or it will stop being the gov.

[Balozi]

i agree with you alalzia

[Philip]

First of all I spend about 6 months in Thrace during the late 2004 and early 2005.

In the cities, nobody really cared if you're muslim or of other ethnicity. You didn't know if the person standing next to you is Greek, Turk, Bulgarian or Armenian. At least that was what I noticed as a temporarly inhabitant in Thrace. In villages thing were different. You had exclusive Pomak villages, turkish communities and mixed villages. In each of them you could see churches and tzami.

As a person who likes culture, I found all these very interesting. I hanged mostly with Armenians. They seemed to have it a lot of easier, or lets say they lived in better standards. At least that was what I experienced.

The Pomacs as many said were probably muslim slavs. They totaly refused any connection to Turkey. They lived in small communities in areas that were not that approachable.

Anyway, that was my experiences. Now when it comes to the situation I do not agree people from the current goverment refuse to call the turkish people as ethnically turks. On the other side it is wrong from Turkey to call all muslims in Greece turks since Greece has muslims from various places of the world.

On the other side, all modern countries do not separate their citizens by ethnicity. If you got a nationality you're reported with that in the cencus. For example a turkish person with Greek nationality is reported as "Greek" in his nationality. The ethnicity is not written down in pappers etc. The same happens in countries like f.ex Sweden, Norway etc. The absence of nationality in each persons identifications happens to avoid problems (which seems that it causes problems often).

Imagine in lets say 30 years. A third generation young man is searching for a job. His parents have now a Greek surname (often to avoid discrimination) and this person sends his CV to several companies. If those companies can look up his past and see his ethnicity it could cause problems in case the boss is an idiot. This is a problem reported in many countries. I will take for example Sweden where even though the ethnicity of a person does not appear in any way, just because of a surname you may loose the job, regardless your education.

Modern states due to globalization do not use ethnicity to separate the state residents. The nationality is being used which is the same for everyone. Have you heard for example about the Swedish taliban in Guantanamo? I read Swedish newspappers where the goverment tryes to get him back. His real ethnicity has been NEVER reported. He is always reported as Swedish.

So, anyway, I do not see any good reason to report a persons ethnicity when this person is a part of the greater community of a country. Even though people of other ethnicities do not have it always easy, the ethnic separation of from the main body will definetely not do any good.

Well, i would like to analyze it more but i don't have so much time. I will be back.

[tsunami]

I have a form in front of me at the moment, unfortunately i do not have a scanner.

Anyway, this form is my sisters form to be applied for Uni here in Cambridge UK.

It says: Pick the appropriate ethnical background:

1. White

2. Black Carribean

3. Black African

4. Indian

5. Banghladeshi

6. Asian

7. Other.


And that is the official form about ETHNICITY in the UK currently.

[Kula]

Huh, that looks pretty weird, they summed up a whole race of people with just white, yet they make a difference between Indian and Bangladeshi.

[tsunami]

Yap, very weird, i believe its because the Indians are somehow considered to be Brits, a little bit.


But anyway, yes its very weird.

[TurkishDelight]

It is rather strange to say Greek Muslims are not Turkish wherease most of them identify themselves as Turkish. I think if people claims that they are something that you have to except that regardless where they have originated from. There are many greeks that immigrated to Greece from Turkey whom did not speak any greek but Turkish nevertheless thay have been considered as Greeks because thay have felt that way due to religion. We have Turkish Orthodox in this country but they do not feel that they are greek and they identify themselves as Turks. I think we should respect people's feeling about their identity. Isn't that right so?

[WisdomSeeker]

It is rather strange to say Greek Muslims are not Turkish wherease most of them identify themselves as Turkish.

The key word here is ''most of them''.

Yes,there are muslims that identify themselves as turks,it would be naive to support otherwise,yet there are others who identify themselves as greeks,or pomaks,or roma.

The problem derives from the insisting pressure and/or view of the turkish government to put the entire muslim community under its umbrella,by proclaiming the entire muslim minority as ''turkish''.
A quick glance of the declarations of the several turkish deputies can confirm it.


Plus,the Lausanne Treaty,which Turkiye signed clearly mentions of a ''muslim minority in western Thrace and a greek minority in Instanbul''. It does not mention any ethnic minority in Greece TD,you can check it yourself.


I think we should respect people's feeling about their identity. Isn't that right so?

Of course. As i have said it would be naive to support the non existance of muslims with turkish national conscioussness there.

[Balozi]

i think that what some people declare in turkey has nothing to do with what some people declare as their nationality. if they declare as turks then let it be so, why do greeks have a problem with that?

[Philip]

It is rather strange to say Greek Muslims are not Turkish wherease most of them identify themselves as Turkish.

Yeah, they are Turkish but not all of them. The Pomacs for example do not state that they are Turkish. They're probably muslim slavs.

I don't have a problem though. If they feel slavs or turkish it is fine with me.

[dimitris]

ΝΑΡΚΗ ΣΤΑ ΕΘΝΙΚΑ ΣΥΜΦΕΡΟΝΤΑ ΜΕ ''ΟΜΟΓΕΝΕΙΣ ΤΗΣ ΑΓΚΥΡΑΣ''

Αριθμός φύλλου 134, Κυριακή 16-09-2007


Click on the links:

http://www.protothema.gr/articles.php?id=259&pages=14-15

http://www.protothema.gr/articles.php?id=259&pages=16


And here is the video which you can download from this link:

http://www.protothema.gr/downloads/public/vouli_tourkwn.html


Open the file with Windows Media Player if you can`t play the file with Winamp.


This is outrageous!:angry019:

[Venstar]

ΝΑΡΚΗ ΣΤΑ ΕΘΝΙΚΑ ΣΥΜΦΕΡΟΝΤΑ ΜΕ ''ΟΜΟΓΕΝΕΙΣ ΤΗΣ ΑΓΚΥΡΑΣ''
This is outrageous!:angry019:

I do not understand the Greek text and the video.:">

Someone to translate??

Regards,
Venelin

[Alalzia]

Free translation

In a secret meeting among Turkish friendly organizations of Thrace that was financed by the Turkish consultat (small embassy) an electoral campaign started in the minority villages of the area whith the scope to manipulate the muslim population so they could achieve the maximum presence of Turks in the Greek parliament.
In the same meetings candidates of both Socialist and Conservative parties took part in an unofficial debate of obedience to Ankara.
The *don't know the word" of the Turkish state under the leadership of the fake moufti of Xanthi Ahmed Meme , the ND candidate Orhan Hadzi Ibrahim the candidate of PASOK Cetin Mantazi and the "journalist" Andhularif Dede met with only purpose to press or blackmail members of the minority to vote for "Turkish Candidates" .

This unbelievable incident comes to the public by the newspapper "To Thema" including chants of hate like "Don't vote for a *add how ottomans called the Greeks*"
"Turks voting for Turks" and "Scare all those who vote for *add how ottomans called the Greeks*" that were told by the candidates and ware recorded by Turkish TV.

This is a documentary video that will make the Pri Minister and all those who rushed to talk about the right of self determination after mr. Hadzi Ibrahim statements feel ashamed.



If anyone can make a better translation okay but till then I ROCK

[Balozi]

meme and dede sound albanian :P

[tsunami]

You ROCK Alalzia.

Anyway, Thrace as well as Cyprus will erupt now that Israel invaded Syria, and America is ready for Iran and already made a declaration.

We should be expecting action to take place, and some serious handlings will come about.

It requires a lot of attention/caution.

[Darien]

Reading through this thread a couple of things need to be pointed out.

If Greece (an EU country) has ANY minority and this minority wants to preserve their identity then Greece should provide the means for doing so. Any minority wants to preserve their identity. Sending them to the EU to ask for fonds is not the answer. If they are afraid of discrimination OR if they know that their requests will lead nowhere then that mean Greece Gov't is NOT doing their part.

Also Attila you cannot say that just because of religion those people are Turkish, otherwise you could claim the most part of the Albanian population ;) and Greece could claim the orthodox part. That's not the way things work. We have already made a distinction between religion and ethnicity.

On the other hand some member like Phillip try to pass the discrimination problem as a common event even among Western EU countries. Stop it! Greece is officially one of the most racist countries in Europe...you don't need to say otherwise.

Even though I agree with Alalzia in most points, I have to say that claiming that Greece is 98% inhabited by greeks is either foolish OR Greece is purposely ignoring the minorities. I would say at least 20% in Greece is made up of other ethnicities (probably more - i'm being modest).

[WisdomSeeker]

Even though I agree with Alalzia in most points, I have to say that claiming that Greece is 98% inhabited by greeks is either foolish OR Greece is purposely ignoring the minorities. I would say at least 20% in Greece is made up of other ethnicities (probably more - i'm being modest).

And where did that percentage come from?

20% would be over 2 million non greeks who are citizens and have full political rights,living in the country for more than 100 years.

Care to elaborate please? Because i may be''fool" to believe otherwise:D

[Alalzia]

Darien the truth is that immigrants take nativity papers (after 10 years in the country) but not citizenship , not even their kids so when we talk about Greek citizens 98% is Greek.

Balozi , you know Turkish names have strange tones and an average Greek like me can not give the correct spelling when translating from Greek ; unless you think that there are muslim Albanians living in Pomak and gypsy villages.

Tsunami , i don't understand how Iran and Thrace are connected , the idiots will use NATO and it is not possible to rise tensions inside it while they use it.
Provocative actions are always a possibility but well we can deal with them . Turkish foreign minister was in north Cyprus saying that "Cyprus issue should not be an obstacle for Turkey's entrance to EU" i think Cypriots will surprise him and veto his rear out.


The thing here are i understand it is that the 2 big Greek parties choose candidates from inside the minority ( i don't see how this is discrimination ) and those candidates chose to terrorize the minority in order to vote for them . Now if both parties had some dignity they should force those guys out of the list and place charges on them. THIS IS NOT TURKEY , it is not only illegal to force anyone's vote but it is also illegal to say that you will.

Ironic that Greek police is needed to protect minority from it self .

[Darien]

The key here as Alalzia explains above are the legal papers and citizenship. I am not taking that into account, when I say that there are 2 million non-greeks in Greece, and your government does a fine job to keep it that way. You don't even give citizenship to the newborns for that matter.
My reply was to Alalzia who earlier had mentioned that Greece was made of about 98% Greeks only. (obviously he means the ones that have citizenship documents)

[Attila]

Free translation

In a secret meeting among Turkish friendly organizations of Thrace that was financed by the Turkish consultat (small embassy) an electoral campaign started in the minority villages of the area whith the scope to manipulate the muslim population so they could achieve the maximum presence of Turks in the Greek parliament.
In the same meetings candidates of both Socialist and Conservative parties took part in an unofficial debate of obedience to Ankara.
The *don't know the word" of the Turkish state under the leadership of the fake moufti of Xanthi Ahmed Meme , the ND candidate Orhan Hadzi Ibrahim the candidate of PASOK Cetin Mantazi and the "journalist" Andhularif Dede met with only purpose to press or blackmail members of the minority to vote for "Turkish Candidates" .

This unbelievable incident comes to the public by the newspapper "To Thema" including chants of hate like "Don't vote for a *add how ottomans called the Greeks*"
"Turks voting for Turks" and "Scare all those who vote for *add how ottomans called the Greeks*" that were told by the candidates and ware recorded by Turkish TV.

This is a documentary video that will make the Pri Minister and all those who rushed to talk about the right of self determination after mr. Hadzi Ibrahim statements feel ashamed.


himm I don'T believe that this is true but in case of any truth in it Turks would vote to Turks in anyway.
Who do you think Greeks vote for in Turkey? AKP? MHP?
They would vote for the closest one to them since they don't have enough population even to fill a neighbourhood.
However Turks already have enough people there living (under Greek threat)

"fake moufti of Xanthi Ahmed Meme" and who is this guy?
I believe his mouftiness is not the only thing which is fake, this guy might be imaginary as a whole because
"MEME" as in his surname means "nipple,boob" I haven't seen any surname like that in my life :)

but dede is alright Alalzia it means "grandfather" :)
keep going I wonder what more conspiracy theories you will come up with

[Alalzia]

Darien I totally agree with gov not giving citizenship to anyone .Taking into account our birth rate and giving citizenship to anyone, the day that cows will be holy and free roam the street is not far. There are some demonstrations with kids wearing shirts "I WAS BORN HERE" and i always feel good to appear in them with shirt saying "YES BUT YOU ARE STILL A PAKI" , no racism or anything, i just don't like those people to vote for my gov. As about Albanians and the rest of fellow Balkanians they will be EU citizens in a couple of years so no worries.

Attila lol with the names , that was something i should know. I have no idea what makes a mufti and what does not, i don't even care. Turks are like 40% of the minority , not all muslim candidates are Turks , Pomaks and Gypsies where on the lists too . This is not a conspiracy theory, the incident was recorded by Turkish TV and you know that Greek media closely cooperate with the Turkish ones.Terrorizing anyone is illegal , specially when it comes to voting and to put it simply if you do not respect the laws and institutions of this country you don't deserve to enter the parliament and of course next time you will visit Istanbul for orders you will have your citizenship stripped .

[Darien]

I didn't know there were that many Pakis there.
I have no problem with cows being holy but I have a problem when they shit all over the streets :)
Anyway, I understand your concern but regardless Greece is not conforming to the standards of the West.
I'm mostly concerned about the 200,000 (i think that's the right number) Albanian newborns.
Honestly I truly hope Albania starts moving forward a little faster so maybe we can take the burden of off you guys and get the majority of these people back home where they are needed more. In the meantime it would be fair that Greece treats with dignity not just the Albanians but all minorities.
I think I'm going off topic now (albanian-greek issues).

[tsunami]

Greece and the Albanians is indeed a different topic and one that is not the same with other minorities.

Greece and Minorities is the same as West and Minorities. Our policies come straight from the EU, and there are already enough organizations that fight for Human Rights and such, already more than enough, in this respect Greece is already too liberal.

Only this incident that happened now, and Alalzia translated shows that Greece is actually too soft on its Minorities.

With the Albanians different rules apply for many reasons.

The Albanians came to Greece unexpected and on bulk.

So the Greek government applied a mixture of policies, which some of them were not very good, giving to the Albanians a hard time to make papers, and keep them illegal, while others especially those who could afford it were becoming legal without second thought.

[tsunami]

It would have been suicide to legalize 1 million Albanians at once and without second thoughts, because once you legalize someone, he can create trade unions, bargain his vote. So the Albanians are becoming legal but slowly, if the Albanians came on slow waves then there wouldnt be any such problem, but suddenly and so much at once, these people have to familiarize themselves first, get to know the country, let the country get to know them and then offer them legal rights.

You dont just legalize 1 million not even first generation Albanians at once, it is massive number in a country of 10 million. And this number if legalized can influence a lot the internal politics. You dont just do that with a population that is unfamiliar with the country, and also with a population that you were in a State of war until recently.

So, in some respects one can say that Greece treated some of the Albanians specifically not with the best heart, well those that were unfairly treated can go, if they dont like it.

[Darien]

It would have been suicide to legalize 1 million Albanians at once and without second thoughts, because once you legalize someone, he can create trade unions, bargain his vote. So the Albanians are becoming legal but slowly, if the Albanians came on slow waves then there wouldnt be any such problem, but suddenly and so much at once, these people have to familiarize themselves first, get to know the country, let the country get to know them and then offer them legal rights.

You dont just legalize 1 million not even first generation Albanians at once, it is massive number in a country of 10 million. And this number if legalized can influence a lot the internal politics. You dont just do that with a population that is unfamiliar with the country, and also with a population that you were in a State of war until recently.

So, in some respects one can say that Greece treated some of the Albanians specifically not with the best heart, well those that were unfairly treated can go, if they dont like it.

BTW I believe you are still in a state of war with Albania ;)

Unfortunately the answer is NOT "if they dont like it they can go".
Personally I wish they would all go from Greece. Frankly (without trying to insult anyone) is the worst country in my opinion to immigrate to, simply because all the trouble and abuse it's not worth it given that there are better standards in other places. The point is that also the majority of the ones who go to Greece do not know any better or at least they didn't in the early 90's, hence the current situation that we have.

Also I'm not saying legalize 1M in one blow. That would certainly be a big impact. I'm talking only about 200 thousand newborns.

[Alalzia]

This is a bit out of topic (muslims) but i will continue with Albanians , it is true that 2nd generation is more or less Hellinized , my neighbors even speak Greek at home .
This thing about mafia and scum belongs to the past , most Albanians are settled , many have their own jobs or run their businesses , of course there are criminals as there are Greek criminals . I was all around central Greece at summer and in most cases local radios spoke of Bulgarian scum ( newcoming n00bs).
I will not have any problem to give nativity papers to all of them 1m or 2m really , the more we getting to know each other the more it becomes clear that we are almost the same brand of people ; but given the experience of Kosovo and FYROM i say no f'in way , it isn't a matter of loyalty or anything , it is a matter of trouble . We already have enough troubles to deal with and see the noise those Chams are making....and they are only 20.000 .

[Darien]

This is a bit out of topic (muslims) but i will continue with Albanians , it is true that 2nd generation is more or less Hellinized , my neighbors even speak Greek at home .
This thing about mafia and scum belongs to the past , most Albanians are settled , many have their own jobs or run their businesses , of course there are criminals as there are Greek criminals . I was all around central Greece at summer and in most cases local radios spoke of Bulgarian scum ( newcoming n00bs).
I will not have any problem to give nativity papers to all of them 1m or 2m really , the more we getting to know each other the more it becomes clear that we are almost the same brand of people ; but given the experience of Kosovo and FYROM i say no f'in way , it isn't a matter of loyalty or anything , it is a matter of trouble . We already have enough troubles to deal with and see the noise those Chams are making....and they are only 20.000 .

LOL - C'mon man, are you guys that paranoid? :D

[Alalzia]

LOL - C'mon man, are you guys that paranoid? :D

Darien i think i have expressed the average Greek's concerns over the issue, nothing more - nothing less.

[Darien]

Greece will soon be ours :D

[dimitris]

Foundations bill passes in Greek commission


Thursday, January 17, 2008

Foundations bill passes in Greek commission

Greek parliament's internal affairs commission yesterday approved a bill, which stipulates that administrative members of foundations belonging to Turks in Western Thrace should be appointed not by Athens but through elections. The bill will enter force in the event that it passes in the general assembly.

ATHENS – Anatolia news agency

source (http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=93918)

[Balozi]

so what's the meaning of this? who will participate in the elections

[Alalzia]

They will elect their muftis or whatever they call them , fair enough .

[dimitris]

Athens to appeal EU Thrace ruling


Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis said yesterday that Greece would appeal a decision by the European Court of Human Rights allowing two groups in a Muslim-populated region of northern Greece to define themselves as “Turkish.”

“After careful consideration, Greece has decided to appeal the ruling,” Bakoyannis told a press conference without elaborating.

The Strasbourg-based court ruled in March that Greece had violated European provisions on freedom of assembly and association by banning two groups calling themselves the Xanthi Turkish Union and the Rodopi Cultural Association of Turkish Women. In an earlier ruling, Greece’s Supreme Court had banned the two associations which it accused of seeking to promote “Turkish ideas.”

Greece recognizes the existence of a Muslim minority in Thrace but says calling this minority Turkish is inaccurate and a potential threat to democratic stability.

Bakoyannis also responded yesterday to comments by the president of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) earlier this week according to which the neighboring country will not accept any change to its language and national identity. “We will not be drawn into a new discussion which may eventually lead to the negotiating process being distracted from its aim,” Bakoyannis said, stressing once again that the purpose of ongoing talks is to arrive at a “mutually acceptable solution on the name issue.”

FYROM President Branko Crvenkovski on Tuesday said his country should “reassess its stance on the dual name formula and make some kind of concession,” but added that Skopje would not budge on issues of language and identity. United Nations mediator Matthew Nimetz is due to visit Athens and Skopje next week in a bid to advance negotiations on the name.

Link (http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100008_19/06/2008_97801)



Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis said yesterday that Greece would appeal a decision by the European Court of Human Rights allowing two groups in a Muslim-populated region of northern Greece to define themselves as “Turkish.”

“After careful consideration, Greece has decided to appeal the ruling,” Bakoyannis told a press conference without elaborating.

Let them define themselves whatever they want.Geez....

[Balozi]

yes ffs and the whole world knows that they're turkish anyway. and even if some of them aren't and they want to be i dont see why not

[dimitris]

yes ffs and the whold workd knows that they're turkish anyway. and even if some of them aren't and they want to be i dont see why not

What does "whold workd" mean?? :P

[TurkishDelight]

If I want call myself Martian I believe that is my bussiness. So regardless what you think about them they established an NGO and called it Turkish. It is their choice to call themselves whatever they want. Who are you to say otherwise. Maybe you suggest DNA test but that would upset a lot of Greeks because they will find out that we are really cousins or something. Not allowing them to identify themselves as Turks is a racist act and that is that. No buts and No ifs.

[dimitris]

If I want call myself Martian I believe that is my bussiness. So regardless what you think about them they established an NGO and called it Turkish. It is their choice to call themselves whatever they want. Who are you to say otherwise. Maybe you suggest DNA test but that would upset a lot of Greeks because they will find out that we are really cousins or something. Not allowing them to identify themselves as Turks is a racist act and that is that. No buts and No ifs.


Maybe you suggest DNA test but that would upset a lot of Greeks because they will find out that we are really cousins or something.

"Cousins"?We are actually Homo sapiens - ha!

:D


http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/97/76397-004.jpg

[Александар Маке]

Can Muslim be a minority???Is Muslim nationality???O.o

[Alalzia]

Can Muslim be a minority???Is Muslim nationality???O.o

How did you call 140.000 people from which 80.000 are Turks 40.000 are Pomaks and 20.000 are Gypsies ?

[harvest]

Can Muslim be a minority???Is Muslim nationality???O.o
You're right! But there are religious minorities as well and as long as the respect toward them is an issue, they may be treated as a minority.

[Bardhi]

the Bosniaks were called Muslims and were recognised as a Muslim Nation in the 70' (muslimani vs Muslimani)... So practically yea there can be a Muslim minority if that is what the choose as the main element of their identity.

[Александар Маке]

How did you call 140.000 people from which 80.000 are Turks 40.000 are Pomaks and 20.000 are Gypsies ?I call them Turkish minority,Pomak minority and Roma(Gypsie) minority.But your so-called democratic country puts them in one group "Muslim minority".Muslims can be minority only in religious way.
Is there a muslim language???O.o

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:550px-Greece_linguistic_minoritiesb_copy.jpg

[Alalzia]

I call them Turkish minority,Pomak minority and Roma(Gypsie) minority.But your so-called democratic country puts them in one group "Muslim minority".Muslims can be minority only in religious way.
Is there a muslim language???O.o

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:550px-Greece_linguistic_minoritiesb_copy.jpg

First of all Greece is not a "so called" democratic country , for sure it is not perfect but it will get you 100 or more years to reach our level .

This map totally forgets Tsakonika and Sarakatsanika , also language means nothing , many Turkish speaking Greeks have moved from former USSR in Athens, Thrace ,Kozani and other places .

*I love the stripes of Slavic , can i get an Alalzian stripe in Athens please?

[WisdomSeeker]

Can Muslim be a minority???Is Muslim nationality???O.o


How convenient! Why are you focusing only on muslims in Greece? I suggest you can check up in wiki for the term ''minority'' and its subgroups.

Yes,there can be religious minorities,and they exist all over the world,what are the mormons in Utah? (first example it crosses my mind).

Minorities include any national,ethnical,linguistical,religious ,cultural,social,racial group of people. So dont focus only on just one branch of it.

[dimitris]

I call them Turkish minority,Pomak minority and Roma(Gypsie) minority.But your so-called democratic country puts them in one group "Muslim minority".Muslims can be minority only in religious way.
Is there a muslim language???O.o

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:550px-Greece_linguistic_minoritiesb_copy.jpg


ARTICLE 45.

The rights conferred by the provisions of the present Section on the non-Moslem minorities of Turkey will be similarly conferred by Greece on the Moslem minority in her territory.

Link (http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:nbLLUNShVKIJ:www.regione. taa.it/biblioteca/minoranze/grecia1.pdf+the+Lausanne+treaty+1923&hl=sv&ct=clnk&cd=31)


It was stipulated in the Lausanne treaty, 1923 which was agreed between Greece and other countries of the one part and Turkey of the other part.The question here is to let the Turks,Pomaks and the Gypsys define themselves whatever they want and that is something I don`t have any problem with.

[Александар Маке]

but it will get you 100 or more years to reach our level .
We dont want to reach "your level".;)


Why are you focusing only on muslims in Greece?'cos that's the only minority your government recognises(very demoNcratic).


also language means nothing If that is true than why are you blabering all the time that Macedonians speak some kind of bulgarian dialect???

[WisdomSeeker]

We dont want to reach "your level".

Yes,NATO members realised it during the last summit. EU will soon learn about your ''intentions'' not reaching european standards very soon as well.


'cos that's the only minority your government recognises(very demoNcratic).

Unlike your country,(Interim Accord)Greece respects international treaties signed in the past.(Treaty of Lausanne). Blame us for respecting the treaties then:P


If that is true than why are you blabering all the time that Macedonians speak some kind of bulgarian dialect???

Because you insist that Alexander first thing in the morning he did was to say ''dobro utro'' and ''pozdrav'' to his companions.

[Александар Маке]

Well i hardly doubt he said "kali mera" and "Geia sas" either.:)

[dimitris]

First Greek Muslim Professional Female Soldier


x8kUus47POQ

Sorry, it`s in Greek.

[Gnous]

Well i hardly doubt he said "kali mera" and "Geia sas" either.:)

Definitely he understood the words
kali =good
imera =day
ygeia =health
sas =(to) you

All four of them are still in use
..Pozdrav ..or whatever ;)

[Darien]

Yes,NATO members realised it during the last summit. EU will soon learn about your ''intentions'' not reaching european standards very soon as well.


It's not so easy to project the growth of a nation. 100 yrs is overestimated, I'd say. They should be able to grow and develop regardless of their membership in those respective organizations. However being member would certainly help a lot.



Unlike your country,(Interim Accord)Greece respects international treaties signed in the past.(Treaty of Lausanne). Blame us for respecting the treaties then:P


Yes Greece does respect the treaty. No doubt about it. It is worth noting though that the treay was written very much in Greece's favor. Would be stupid not to respect it.



Because you insist that Alexander first thing in the morning he did was to say ''dobro utro'' and ''pozdrav'' to his companions.

I'm with you on this one. LOL.

"dobro utro" :D

[WisdomSeeker]

It's not so easy to project the growth of a nation. 100 yrs is overestimated, I'd say. They should be able to grow and develop regardless of their membership in those respective organizations. However being member would certainly help a lot.

Yes they should be able to grow and prosper just like every other country in the world,i dont see that happening under their current (dominanant) political indoctrination though (if we consider which way their prime minister has picked up for its country).


Yes Greece does respect the treaty. No doubt about it. It is worth noting though that the treay was written very much in Greece's favor. Would be stupid not to respect it.

The issue here is that although it is not in Turkey's favour to ask for a revision,they try to subtly impose a revision unileratelly on Greece. Why should the treaty be revised only on greece's part?

[Darien]

Yes they should be able to grow and prosper just like every other country in the world,i dont see that happening under their current (dominanant) political indoctrination though (if we consider which way their prime minister has picked up for its country).



The issue here is that although it is not in Turkey's favour to ask for a revision,they try to subtly impose a revision unileratelly on Greece. Why should the treaty be revised only on greece's part?

Ideally a treaty would allow for the parties involved to be all happy. In other words it's a relationship which should not be seen as beneficial only to some parties. If one calls for its revision, I see it as a pro-active way to improving the relationship between the two. A chance to settle any pending issues and to prevent new ones.
I say revise it. The country which thinks that has been cheated will normally try to find other ways to make up and accommodate that loss. Why not do things together, with full transparency, and without deeper political implications, for which the common folks will have to pay the toll?

[WisdomSeeker]

Because Darien,Turkey cannot afford to revise it under its present structure,and one treaty can be revised only if all parts agree,or be terminated through war. There is no other choice. Greece has done all the necessary moves allowed by the international law ( billingual educational system ,books provided by Turkey, free press and media in turkish language,mosques, special quotas regarding work access to state jobs ,privileged military service etc).

The only thing that it cannot allow is the rename of the community into plain ''turkish'',because first they are not all turks (i have met pomaks and they the vast majority of them are insulted if called such) and secondly it would mean the unilateral revision of the treaty itself. Greece would have every right to call for changes on Turkey's part and that would lead to open a can of worms,because other countries are part of the treaty as well (including Bulgaria and Italy).