Arvanites - a bridge between greeks and Albanians

[kgram]

Hello everybody,
since I am new in the forum, let me introduce myself : I am greek, 50% arvanite in blood (from my fathers side, my grandparents left volunteerly their village, that today is in Bulgaria, in 1919, believing they were Greeks and not Bulgarians. Before 1919, while their village was in Ottoman empire, they had in the village a greek school, financed by their community, and the best students received scholarships from the community to continue studies at the greek highschool of Edirne. (Fan Noli , coming from an arvanite village of eastern Thrace, studied in the same highschool)).

I cannot understand why the issue of arvanites existing in Greece for more than 200 years in the south and 100 years in the north is used from some members of the forum as a tool to increase or create tension between the 2 countries.

There are more than 4-5 million greek people in USA, most of them 2nd or 3rd generation english-speaking americans that have forgotten their parents language ( or learn it as foreign language for sentimental reasons), and this population is concidered as a bridge of friendship and economic relationship both from USA and Greece.

What is the problem with arvanites ? Their anchestors moved to the south in middle age seeking for a better life. At a time when religion was more important than nation or language (1400-1900), being christian orthodox they joined the christian orthodox greeks and the christian orthodox vlachs in a common revolt against the muslim ottoman empire that aupressed all of them.

Since the indepentent state that came out from this revolt was concidered from Europe as the succesor of the ancient Greek glory and history, and since at that time the language the most respectful and with a huge heritage in written works and grammar was greek, what most logical for them to accept the domination of greek culture, language and heritage for the state where thy belonged? While at the same time there was no discrimination at all, they were participating at all levels of administration (even some of the first prime-ministers of the new state were arvanites, and the first regulation code of the greek navy was written in arvanite language so that the majority of the marins who were arvanites could understand it).

Some very recent examples of the arvanites position in Greece :
The new Archbishop of Greece , Ieronymos, comes from a purely arvanite village (Inofyta), and his family name is Liapis.
The minister of cultural affaires of Greece, cousin of prime-minister Karamanlis, is also called Michalis Liapis.

To conclude, in my opinion the arvanite case should be used to point out that there is a good percentage of albanian blood in what is today the greek nation. Therefore, Greeks and Albanians have good reasons to disregard things that separate them, and point out things that join them.

[Alalzia]

Welcome to the forums dude , i am a proud Arvanitis too (although i do not speak the language) , i mostly agree with your post but please read about who Liapides was .

[WisdomSeeker]

Welcome to the forum mate,hope you stay long enouph with us

[kgram]

Hello everybody,
Alalzia I don't know what Liapides (the family Liapis, for the non greek speaking) have done in history - I just gave the example because this is a very typical arvanite name, quite common in Greece.
I have read that in arvanite language the name means "non believer".

[Alalzia]

Hello everybody,
Alalzia I don't know what Liapides (the family Liapis, for the non greek speaking) have done in history - I just gave the example because this is a very typical arvanite name, quite common in Greece.
I have read that in arvanite language the name means "non believer".

Liapis tribe was the worst ever walked on earth but not because they were muslim ( chams were muslims too but they didn't hurt anyone ) they used to pillage our villages .

[Free Illyrade]

So , you guys are Arvanites .
And call your self Greeks .
The first President of the Arvanitic World Council , Aristides Kollias was Arbërorë too , but he doesn't consideres his self Greek !
Kollias Opinions :
1~Modern Albanians are the only and directly descendant of the Old Hellenes !
2~Epirus means Albania , Epirotes means Albanians !
3~Kosova is Dardania and Kosovans are the Dardanians !
4~All the Albanophone Greeks are a minorance , the Albanian minorance of Greece !
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Why only in Internet I listen about a Greek Identity of the Arvanites ?
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Albanophone Greeks :
Epirus = Chams ,
Thrace = Albanians ,
Western Macedonia = Tosks ,
Rest = Arvanites .
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Why did they call themselves Albanians , particulair of you " Kgram " , the Albanophones of Thrace ?
Did you now them ?
Do you speak Albanian ?
------------------------------
Are you the typical Greek , that say " We(?) Arvanites are Greeks " < this happens only in Internet .
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Why the Arvanites when talk with the rest of the Albanians call themselves Albanian and not Arvanite ?
------------------------------

[WisdomSeeker]

The first President of the Arvanitic World Council , Aristides Kollias was Arbërorë too , but he doesn't consideres his self Greek

Aristides Kollias,Free Illyrade does not represent the Arvanites in Greece. And certainly,what is this Arvanitic World Council?

Have you any idea of how the rest of the Arvanites in Greece have reacted when they heard his stories?:D

Kollias Opinions :
1~Modern Albanians are the only and directly descendant of the Old Hellenes !
2~Epirus means Albania , Epirotes means Albanians !
3~Kosova is Dardania and Kosovans are the Dardanians !
4~All the Albanophone Greeks are a minorance , the Albanian minorance of Greece !

It happens that i have read his books. Have you any idea of what he writes in there?

Why only in Internet I listen about a Greek Identity of the Arvanites ?

You are free to go and ask them in Greece yourself face to face.

[Darien]

Oh no, here we go again

Free Illyrade I'll try and support you as an Albanian but please, just a precaution don't get too aggressive. We'll lose points that way

We have discussed this very same issue with the Greeks in the past.
In my opinion we have had way better relationships in the past than now, since the introduction of "nations".

Let's keep this thread friendly and Happy chatting!

[kgram]

Thanks Darien for cooling down things.
Anyway, I did not say anything offending for Albanians, and I do not have any such intention.
I just described my reality, as I have lived it in my country.

I live in Greece, and I grew up in Western Thrace, where, in prefecture of Evros mainly there are 15-20 arvanite villages . Almost all of them are refugees, either from Haskovo area in Bulgaria (my village and 3-4 around it), or from the east shore of Evros river.
These guys during the very difficult years between 1919-1923, had chosen to leave their villages and properties, in order to move within the newly formed borders of Greece at that area.
These populations during the guerilla struggle that took place during 1904-1908 in Macedonia and Thrace between greeks and bulgarians, formed partisan groups that were fighting on the greek side.
If they did not consider themselves greeks, they would have stayed neutral.

My point is that there is no meaning in the effort of Albanian friends to discover an Albanian identity at today's arvanites of Greece. We are not stupid, we all know that the arvanite language is very very similar to Albanian Tosk, and that we have common blood and common anchestors with the Albanians, at least those of the south. But we also know that our grand-grand parents had decided to participate actively in the formation of the greek state back in 1821, and our grand fathers and parents have educated us that we are greeks as everybody else in the country.

And you cannot accuse our anchestors as traitors of their Albanian identity, because they never had one. They decided that they were greeks around 1770-1830, during an era of revolts of the christian people of the south of Balkans against the Ottoman rule. Actually they called themselves Romioi (which comes from Romans) as every other christian in the area that is today Greece and Turkey. At that time a growing urban class of merchants, intellectuals, civil servants of the Ottoman empire, succesful immigrants in Venice, Russia, Austria and Romania, created the ideology that all these Romioi, form a nation that not only has to inherite the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantium), but also are the inheritants of the civilization, glory and history of ancient Greece. This was the creation of the identity of the modern greek nation, and who is to blame that our anchestors, brave fighters and military leaders, decided to join this dream ?

Their choice was Ottoman or Greek, not Albanian or Greek. The first Albanian indelectuals that started to form the idea of an Albanian nation appeared around 1900, almost 100 years later (when in Greece lived the 4rth generation of the fighters and heros of the 1821 revolution), and their influence never reached the southern and eastern parts of the Balkans. The fellow villagers of Theofanis Nolis, who left their village in 1923, during the greek-turkish exchange of populations, and their children now live in one of the Arvanite villages of Evros, or somewhere else in Greece (I found 3 Nolis at the telephone catalogue of Evros), I'm almost sure they have no idea that from their village derives one of the indelectual and political founders of the modern Albanian nation. I know about him just because my hobby is Balkan history, especially around the area of Thrace, and therefore I read a lot of books on the issue.

Last point. Are the arvanites of Greece offended if someone calls them Albanians, or tries to persuade them that they have Albanian blood ?

ok, there are two different attitudes.

There are arvanites who are either more educated or have a liberal attitude in subjects concerning nationalism, purety of blood, arian race and things like that.
These guys simply don't care, and just because of of their mentality, you cannot make them proud of having albanian blood.
This type of people are rationalists, and they could be proud of their blood only if their cousins had created a state less corupted than theirs (ie Norway), more technologically developped (ie Germany), more democratic (ie Nederlands), more powerful (ie USA) etc etc depending on the values of eachone.

There are also arvanites that are either of a lower education (their info just comes from primary school, neighborhood and tv), or have strong right-wing ideas on nation, race, religion etc.
These guys could easily become proud Albanians, if Albania was a country similar to the ones I mentioned above, a country that would make them feel that they want to migrate there.
But when you try to remind them that they have Albanian blood, and their image of Albania is :
1. The poor fellow (good poor looking guy) that works for them in their fields or businesses,
2. The bad criminal they see on the 20.00 news bulletin,

3. The muslim UCK fighter that fights against the christian brothers in Kosovo
4. The bloody albanian guy who managed his life better than themselves, bought an appartment and a new car, has a good business or salary, his son was the best pupil, holding the greek flag at the national parade and is now studying at Athens University
5. The Albanian state of today, poor, corrupted, underdevelloped
(5 characteristic perceptions for Albanians you we find in Greece),
sorry but these types of arvanites will strongly deny that they have anything to do with Albanians, and they will feel insulted to be called so.

Sorry for the long post. I went through the discussion, and I hope I came with a new perspective. I dont challenge the issues whether arvanites have albanian blood, when they appeared in the peninsula, are they illirians or are there the real ancient greeks and such historical questions. I try to clear the point to which degree the today's arvanites of Greece feel themselves greeks. And my personal view is 100%, and this goes back at least 3 to 6-7 generations.

[Alalzia]

Surprisingly apart from the :
"These guys could easily become proud Albanians, if Albania was a country similar to the ones I mentioned above, a country that would make them feel that they want to migrate there."

the rest of the post is almost correct .
You see we are above all Europeans now , thinking European and acting European , living together with both Greeks and Albanians i think it is obvious that we have many things in common , skip the language , the religion (for those who have one) , the arrogant Greekness and the Albanian staborness and there is no difference at all.
For sure Albanian society is like 20 years back but they are caching up fast .


note: if you speak any kind of slavic in Katerini none will understand, try it yourself.

[ShahMat]

kgram:
Are you from here?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjWqXugoxDs

[Darien]

"These guys could easily become proud Albanians, if Albania was a country similar to the ones I mentioned above, a country that would make them feel that they want to migrate there."


I hope the above is NOT true, because it doesn't say much about the arvanite character.

Also I hope it's not true that the arvanites would consider the Serbs as "brothers" simply because of religion and call the UCK fighter as "muslim fighter".

I come from an orthodox family but in a war I would always stand up for my brothers in Kosova and shoot a Serb anytime. I would do the same thing for an arvanite, believe it or not.

Many orthodox Albanians fought for UCK btw.
The UCK was a Liberation Army not a Religious Army not a Muslim Army.

[kgram]

ok, bad expression.
I meant "....could easily feel proud to be called Albanians or cousins of the Albanians..."

Also Darien I don't say UCK is a muslim army. I talk about perceptions, and for the big majority of simple and not much educated people, the general idea of the war in Jugoslavia they have here in Greece, is that Croats and muslims wanted to separate from Jugoslavia. These people I'm almost sure still confuse Kosovo and Bosnia-Ergegovina. From this war they remember NATO aircrafts bombing Belgrade, muslim fighters from islamic countries going as volunteers to Bosnia etc. And in the back side of their minds there is always the equation muslim=turk= ennemy.

I show the video. I am from this erea but not exactly the village. This village Kipoi is next to the bridge on Evros conecting Greece and Turkey, and is one of the arvanite villages I mentioned that came from the other side of the river. Unfortunatelly I don't understand arvanite, so I cannot andurstand the dialogues and the comments

[Balozi]

i like your views kgram

[Alalzia]

this "proud to be called" is politically wrong , guys from Solomon Islands are proud to be called "guys from the Solomon Islands" ... see what i mean?
And the Kosovo case if left without the NATO bombings general feeling in Greece would be far different , you see Greeks are very anti-USA above everything.
On the other hand Milo was overthrown by the Serbs for been a bastard and to all of us this reminded 1967-1974 era.
It is true that some local Nazis fought in Bosnia but hey not all of us are nazis (LAOS party got like 5% in the elections?)
You shall know what christian Balkanians feel about muslim ones , everyone was forced to convert only those few converted so muslim = weak , traitor etc. (i bet you know about the luck of muslim Cretans and why government denies them any conduct with Crete).

[Darien]

You shall know what christian Balkanians feel about muslim ones , everyone was forced to convert only those few converted so muslim = weak , traitor etc

I understand the opinion but I wouldn't agree with it.

Can you give us more info about the Greek resistance during the 500 years of ottoman rule, prior to the independence ofc? As far as I know there wasn't much of it, and neither there was from Serbia.

islam was a good incentive a better life but that's it.

As you know even Ali pasha turned against the sultan.

[Toskaliq 8711]

Welcome to the forum

First off, my personal view towards the Arvanites is one of indifference. They were Albs once, but today they dont even look so. Its been hundreds of years since they moved to Greece, and they themselves do not seem to like being pushed into an identity they dont identify with anyway. To me they are Greeks, full Greeks. Such phenomenons are not particular to Greece. You have the Arberesh community in Italy, the Arbanase community in Croatia(and once in Bulgaria), you have people of Alb ancestry in small villages of southern Ukraine, and at once you had Alb mercenaries as far as Madrid. None of these people particularly identify with Albania(with a number of Arberesh being an exception since they aided our national struggle).

Such communities are not rare in the world and there is no need to push "bridges" through them. Societies should be able to communicate directly, not through various communities between world. This, I think, is a mistake made too often. Like when Greek PM's say "Greek minority is a bridge between Albania and Greece". Do England and France have closer relations because of Bretagne? Obviously not. These infact create distances. Its like having someone speak for you because you dont understand the other person well; and I personally find it insulting.

The Arvanities will disappear completely in the coming generations and most Albs of Greece will either assimilate or they will end up back in Albania. Vice versa, the Greek community in Albania will be replaced by higher Albanian birthrates and higher returnee rate among Albanian immigrants... what will we do then?

Free Illyrade, Im sorry, but people like you are what makes Albanians look bad. You dont have to be the way you are, relax for a moment and start to rationalize things instead of posting impulsively. What you show us is that you dont quite understand the Arvanite mentality.

[WisdomSeeker]

You shall know what christian Balkanians feel about muslim ones , everyone was forced to convert only those few converted so muslim = weak , traitor etc

I understand the opinion but I wouldn't agree with it.

Can you give us more info about the Greek resistance during the 500 years of ottoman rule, prior to the independence ofc? As far as I know there wasn't much of it, and neither there was from Serbia.

islam was a good incentive a better life but that's it.

As you know even Ali pasha turned against the sultan.

The spark that ignited the greek renaissance (if we can call it that way) was the treaty signed between Turkey and Russia in 1774

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Kuchuk-Kainarji

It also granted Russia some economic and political rights in the Ottoman Empire, such as allowing Ottoman Eastern Orthodox Christians to sail under the Russian flag and providing for the building of a Russian Orthodox Church in Istanbul (which was never built). Russia also interpreted the treaty as giving them the right to protect Orthodox Christians in the Empire, notably using this prerogative in the Danubian Principalities (Moldavia and Wallachia) to intervene during the last Phanariote rules and after the Greek War of Independence. The treaty also gave the Ottoman Caliph the right to protect Muslims in Russia, such as those in Crimea. This was the first time the powers of the Ottoman caliph were exercised outside of Ottoman borders and ratified by a European power.

After this date,and prior to 1821 when the greek revolution has been escalated ,many minor ones have been bursted in the greek peninsula and outside (mostly wherever greek communities resided,like in Crimea for example),or in Wallachia.

[Darien]

The spark that ignited the greek renaissance (if we can call it that way) was the treaty signed between Turkey and Russia in 1774

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Kuchuk-Kainarji

It also granted Russia some economic and political rights in the Ottoman Empire, such as allowing Ottoman Eastern Orthodox Christians to sail under the Russian flag and providing for the building of a Russian Orthodox Church in Istanbul (which was never built). Russia also interpreted the treaty as giving them the right to protect Orthodox Christians in the Empire, notably using this prerogative in the Danubian Principalities (Moldavia and Wallachia) to intervene during the last Phanariote rules and after the Greek War of Independence. The treaty also gave the Ottoman Caliph the right to protect Muslims in Russia, such as those in Crimea. This was the first time the powers of the Ottoman caliph were exercised outside of Ottoman borders and ratified by a European power.

After this date,and prior to 1821 when the greek revolution has been escalated ,many minor ones have been bursted in the greek peninsula and outside (mostly wherever greek communities resided,like in Crimea for example),or in Wallachia.

Cool.

However to defend the muslim albanians, long before that albanian muslims were in constant war with the turks. Basically apart for some occasions the ottomans remained our ENEMY.
Our biggest enemy in history may i add.
When it came time they even sided with serbs against us, and other times sided with us against the serbs, regardless of the muslim faith many albanians had.

[Alalzia]

You shall know what christian Balkanians feel about muslim ones , everyone was forced to convert only those few converted so muslim = weak , traitor etc

I understand the opinion but I wouldn't agree with it.

Can you give us more info about the Greek resistance during the 500 years of ottoman rule, prior to the independence ofc? As far as I know there wasn't much of it, and neither there was from Serbia.

islam was a good incentive a better life but that's it.

As you know even Ali pasha turned against the sultan.

There was various revolts but the main thing at least for my understanding was than the plutocratic Greeks (mainly living outside the empire) just wanted to expand business.
If you read carefully there was much more revolts in areas controlled by Venice rather than areas controlled by Ottos ;in the island my family comes from (Andros) rich ship owners voted Venice out and became part of the Ottos . For sure islam was a better option from the heretic catholicism .
Most of the nations inside the empire were poor agrarian and illiterate, this wasn't the case of the Greeks (or the Armenians ) , this reality created areas that only had to pay some taxes and self govern (like the city of Naousa were the Turks are not allowed to even pass from ).
Because Turks were not allowed to speak foreign languages Greeks (and Jews) hold the best diplomatic positions & lot of administrative ones plus Greeks converted to islam had the chance of great military carrier...not many reasons to revolt eh?
Also apart from the autonomy the geographical form of the country helped a lot , some islands (Like Hydra ) had strong fleets who toy Ottoman ships for fun ( the island of Samos had such a strong fleet that not even kept Ottos out but also started to attack Asian Minor coast) ,why having a national revolt when you can play with the bad guys alone?